Cultivating High-Profile Relationships in a Digital World | Clemence Sop

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Digital Strategies for Community Building

A conversation with Clemence Sop about finding a niche audience, creating communities, and building a body of thought leadership based on authenticity and trust.

In this episode of Thought Leadership Leverage, host Bill Sherman sits down with Clemence Sop, the Head of Marketing Innovation at InterSystems, for an insightful discussion on marketing high-ticket items, leveraging digital platforms, and the power of thought leadership.

Clemence shares her fascinating journey from yacht sales to marketing innovation, highlighting the complexity and strategy involved in selling luxury items. She delves into the concept of a cultivation strategist, emphasizing the importance of digital knowledge and social listening to engage potential buyers at the right moment.

Drawing from real-life experiences, Clemence explains how using LinkedIn and celebrity brand ambassadors can build trust and nurture relationships with high-profile clients. She illustrates how positioning oneself as a trusted advisor can enhance visibility and engagement, even with audiences outside the initial target group.

Bill and Clemence explore her career transition from supply chain engineering to big data and social media, driven by her curiosity about the future impact of collective intelligence and connection data on human behavior and business.

In her current role, Clemence spearheads innovative marketing solutions to tackle existing challenges. She narrates a compelling story about addressing thought leadership needs in Belgium’s healthcare system through the “One Patient, One Record” initiative. By sharing personal stories and building a community around patient data challenges, InterSystems was able to foster trust and drive meaningful change.

The episode concludes with a discussion on overcoming mental and spam filters in today’s saturated digital landscape. Clemence emphasizes the necessity of targeting a specific audience, creating relevant content, and establishing authentic connections through thought leadership.

Tune in to learn from Clemence Sop’s unique experiences and insights on transforming marketing strategies through innovation and thought leadership.

Three Key Takeaways:

Strategic Digital Engagement: Clemence Sop emphasizes the importance of leveraging digital knowledge and social listening to effectively engage potential buyers. By cultivating relationships through targeted digital networking and positioning oneself as a trusted advisor, brands can enhance their visibility and build trust with high-profile clients.

The Power of Personal Stories in Thought Leadership: The “One Patient, One Record” initiative showcases the effectiveness of using personal stories to address pain points and build a community. By sharing authentic experiences and focusing on the emotional aspects of patient data challenges, InterSystems was able to establish trust and drive meaningful conversations in the healthcare sector.

Navigating Content Saturation: In a world overwhelmed with digital content, it is crucial to target specific audiences with relevant and purposeful content. Clemence highlights the need for authenticity and relevance in thought leadership, ensuring that content not only reaches but resonates with the intended audience, thereby overcoming mental and spam filters.

If you want to learn more about thought leadership marketing, check out this article Decoding Thought Leadership Marketing: A Blueprint for Success by Thought Leadership Leverage Founder and CEO Peter Winick.

 

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Transcript

 

Bill Sherman Today, I want to explore the concept of the thought leadership pipeline. Whether your practicing thought leadership on your own, or on behalf of an organization, there’s a long supply chain between your raw ideas and data and your target audiences informed actions. And any small break in that chain will prevent impact. It could be that you broadcast your ideas to the wrong groups, or it could be that you don’t fully explain your ideas to your sales team. It’s possible that you may even make cross connections that don’t make sense to your target audience. Today, I speak with Clemence Sop. She’s the Head of Marketing Innovations at InterSystems. Clemence trained in supply chain engineering, but she’s wound up in marketing innovation and thought leadership. In today’s episode, we talk about targeting audiences, utilizing clusters of buyers to shorten the thought leadership pipeline and data driven thought leadership. I’m Bill Sherman and you’re listening to Leveraging Thought Leadership. Ready? Let’s begin.

Bill Sherman Welcome to the show, Clemence.

Clemence Sop Bill, thank you for having me.

Bill Sherman So I’m excited to have a conversation around the hypothesis testing and thought leadership and really bringing an organization together to create impact, right. And you’ve had an interesting career in thought leadership. I want to jump first to one of your early roles, and then we’ll come back to what you’re doing now. So you told me early on that you were involved in yacht sales. Tell me a little bit about that and the process of selling high ticket item.

Clemence Sop The luxury industry is very complex, right? So you have to do your homework and make sure that when you’re reaching out to a potential buyer that he’s ready to buy you because he’s a little inside. We call it cultivation strategies, where you’re cultivating a high profile individual and you have to invest a lot. So you have to make sure that as you’re doing that, you’re doing the right thing so you can land the deal. We always go for almost 98% conversion rates. Otherwise you’re wasting a lot of money and resources, right? So how do you apply detailed knowledge or digital social listening or digital information in this kind of high profile engagement? There is huge power and potential in digital networking, right? So when you’re scraping through the net and you’re finding information about specific individuals, it helps you to engage at the right time, at the right place with them and improve this conversion rate. Let me tell you a story of how we did this particular example. So this wasn’t a recent because I always, you know, I wear many hats at the same time. Right. The pandemic hit. I already left the company, but they reached out to me because of my algorithm knowledge and because I study all of this B2B platform. So they reached out to me again during the pandemic and said, we want to break into a new market. We need your help to understand how we can break into a new market. And we’re targeting a new target audience, and this is new to us. So what did we do? We went on LinkedIn. But I like to start with LinkedIn because LinkedIn is always very tangible and it’s a people to people platform. We always have to define a spokesperson. I what I’ve learned over the years is that you can build trust very fast from a person, as a person than as a brand, really, if you want to break into in your market, building that trust at the personal level always brings, gives results faster. So we add a spokesperson and so we identified the key target audience, on LinkedIn, CEOs of scale ups, start ups, big companies. What could be potential buyers of this product? Then we had our thought leader talk about the product that we were selling. And now in this case, we hired, you know, a renowned celebrity to be the brand ambassador, also on LinkedIn. We created a community on LinkedIn. We created a private group. And so these spoke to the thought leader and the ambassador. We’re inviting our target audiences to this group. But in the group we were nurturing them, I know. And then we started inviting other people as the recommendation. Would you invite 4 or 5 more people as you would the same, similar profile of yours to join the group? That’s how we I call it like social networking plus social selling, right? Because we started the conversations online and then took it offline. So that’s an example.

Bill Sherman That’s a great example. And I want to go back to something that you said early in your response, because I want to underline it for our listeners. You said, hey, we needed a 90% conversion rate. Otherwise the effort for marketing and sales didn’t make sense. Right. And so. With a high ticket luxury. Good. You have a small population target audience, right? And yeah. And so with that, you can spend the time to get to know them well. It’s a relationship selling piece. But instead of broadcasting or even narrow casting to an industry, you’re really doing point casting. You’re targeting individuals where in many cases you’re researching them by name, by profile and saying what is important to this person? What do they value? How are they going to respond? That’s a very high touch approach to thought leadership.

Clemence Sop Yeah, it’s high touch. Although we combine it with a multiple touch approach. Right. Because you have a pool, we have a pool of people that we were targeting. So we went meticulously one after the other. But there is a lot we call like lookalike audiences where you said, I think the communication on all social platforms is always twofold. Once you position yourself as a trusted advisor and you put your content out, that the algorithm works in ways that put your company in front of people who would invite you. And if you’re answering their questions, guess what? You put us up in the arena and they were not part of your target audience. So you’re also multiplying your efforts by doing that. That is what I wanted to highlight.

Bill Sherman Absolutely right is and this goes into something from an earlier career of yours and your study. So you’ve mentioned algorithm a couple times. Where did you think you were going to initially spend your career? And then how did that transition. Because you entered this with a very detailed mindset.

Clemence Sop Yeah, it’s very funny. You know, growing up, having almost everybody in my family is an engineer. So we have our own systems engineers build, you know, into the engineering of building planes. So we grew up around we have some nerds around me. So at some point I went to school. I studied supply chain engineering. I come from Cameroon, and I when I arrived in Europe, I always I was always fascinated to understand and I, we wanted to understand how to transport goods from one place to the other, because in our mind, I was thinking if I was able to, to understand and then we would get more access to food I could work in an industry have more food or basic necessities. So I went into supply chain engineering and I studied that, you know, that a green party and then at the parents in Germany. And when I was doing my masters, you know, I just pursued engineering still. But, you know, when you are looking for the next job, I’m always somebody I’m very ambitious. I always want to know what is the next step for me. And I didn’t really enjoy engineering, but I came across this article that was talking about the jobs of the future. Right. So interesting. You talked about systems engineer. You talked about big data. You know, I and then he talked about social media, you know, going to school. I don’t want to sound pretentious at all as a nerd. I used to regard those studying communications. You know, these I remember we were at the cafeteria and in the working class that all girls can of course can see this, and we used and I was so into, you know, that’s how I used to regard it. So I read the article and it talked about social media. It was when Facebook and Hi5 and Myspace were still evolving, but he talked about it from the data standpoint. It said that this is going to become such a huge data warehouse. And the engineering behind that we would call the platforms are collecting intelligence and collecting data that are going to determine human behaviors and patterns in the future, and that all companies and the whole entire world is going to depend on it. And fast forward, here we are. So I was looking back, I was looking at it from that point and my mentor said, don’t you want to look at that a little bit deeper? Because it might sound easy, but think about what your competitive advantage might be. Well, reading more and digging deeper, I understood that there is obviously a business model behind it. They’re selling the data at and everything like that. It this flattens up millions of millions of users. So at the beginning…

Bill Sherman I think LinkedIn is 800 million.

Clemence Sop Yeah. Or 1 billion. It’s crazy. Right. And the companies are advertising there. So I said okay why don’t I study the patterns on all of these algorithms, how they work from the front end? Then I know what to do. And I can advise companies on how to spend their money or how to meet the right bias, the right time to make the strategic decisions. So that’s what I started doing. And I said, I started to arrive at the beginning. And that’s what got me to marketing. Yeah.

Bill Sherman Which is a different. Road, certainly. But you’ve explained in many ways how sort of the data mindset, the underlying approach in seeking for algorithms and understanding. How do I scale, right.

Clemence Sop Yeah, yeah.

Bill Sherman Really becomes essential here.

Clemence Sop Yeah, I’m happy I made that decision. And because today, even with the AI and all of the new technologies available, I’ve always been involved also in with my team, we build our own intelligence. We we build our own automation platforms to scale whatever we want to achieve. Like. So that’s where my engineering background is kind of helping. And when I’m reading more, I’m seeing that marketing with staff, hiring data scientists, you know, to understand all the things that help them. So I’m happy about this article.

Bill Sherman Well, and it’s been a significant change. It used to be that the CIO control the majority of the tech budget, right? Yeah. Now it’s the CMO and the marketing funding that can control so much of the tech spend. And if you do not understand the technology and you don’t come with the data mindset, you run into difficulties. I want to flash forward to today for you. Talk a little bit about your current role, and I want to go into the story of Belgium and how you approach the world in Belgium to address a follow up leadership need and start a conversation. So what? Let’s start beginning. What do you do today?

Clemence Sop Today. I mean, marketing innovation. What we do is actually find new ways to resolve the existing marketing challenges that we have in a marketing department. And leveraging social platforms is a big part of it. So during the pandemic, just to give you a little bit of story in the pandemic, we, we introduced where we call now behavioral selling, which was then social selling, adding the systems to basically my definition of it is finding the right people, identifying your buying community and and building closeness within a company so you can divide and conquer on social equity. If you have only one group of people reaching out to multiple different resources, you know, discerning efforts right there, there is really a very big advantage, especially when you want to validate a hypothesis to have salespeople and find out from the other company. It’s all about validating the hypothesis so that when you are engaging, you’re engaging with insights, and then you can land the deal. So that’s what we that’s the concept that we built and developed that into systems. And that got me to the project that I had in diligence. So I was called by the that’s an account manager. He had as I come in and in Belgium they had. A couple of issues, right? We are in the systems. We are not very well known. So brand awareness in Belgium is not strong. It’s not very strong for the company. The health care system is not it’s not what it should be. Right. Because they have three different, languages and three different regions. And classical systems do not speak to hospital systems. Patients still have to carry files from one, from one hospital to another. And you get information gets lost like that. So that was when we that was my understanding of the problem at hand. Then hospitals as well. And hospital do not speak to one another. They might have and they already have a new this thing. They already have existing systems. So there was really no need to purchase a new product even though they have a pain. Right? Was is they don’t have a they don’t have the budget because the government has to release the budget to give it to them so that they can purchase this intelligent platforms that would speak to one another that the electronic, electronic health care record, that’s the one that does this. So that’s the problem. Now we need to break into and we need to get into that market.

Bill Sherman Well, and there was a problem even on the citizens side as well, where they had to create their own workaround of how do you manage your records when the hospital might not have that tell the story of the Yellow lunchbox? Because I found that that’s.

Clemence Sop How we get to that. So the and one thing that is really just to tell you how it is the how it was there that the elderly population have something they call a yellow box in their fridge with, with a few information about, you know, their allergies is really chilling. A yellow lunch box in their free so that they get an emergency, and a doctor coming to attend to them would open the free and find some information. I mean, that kind of felt like we are in the in the third world, in a third world country, but no, the so those are the problems. And then when I immediately, you know, when we looked at all of the problem, one thing came to my thought leadership and community building as the way to get into the market and and then achieve our goal. So what we did is that we identified thought about community building. So we identify the people who are feeling the pain the most. The person feeling the pain the most really to me was the patient. If you don’t have access to your data, how would you? You know, if you want to get a second opinion, it’s just going to be very difficult. The patient is the problem. The doctor is facing the problem. Well, the engineer is also facing the problem because it’s difficult to find information. And so but starting a community, we thought about coming at it from an emotional standpoint, the founding father. So we created a community called one patient, one record. So the founding father of the one patient, one record voice, I was the only one employee. So he had an emotional story. So we started on the LinkedIn platform by creating, officializing, creating a newsletter. And he shared his story. I was sick, I had cancer, I had to take a second opinion. I had no access to my data and that’s how we started about it. So then he was talking about the problem and talking about the solution. Look, there’s not talking. He didn’t talk about the systems. She talked about the problem, the pain. Then suddenly other people joined the movement, right? So we had doctors join and we had the MeToo effect because we were on multiple platforms on Facebook and in, on Twitter. People were like, yeah, me too, me too. So we were collecting the stories and tagging the government, tagging the ministers and saying what happened as we were established because this founding father was so media systems, he was building trust and talking about the problem, but he was talking about potential solutions and how all the countries are doing it. And we were connecting him and establishing networks with all series of the hospitals. We have 52 hospitals. They were all became part of his arena, because if you understand the algorithm, you have to if you if somebody who that part of your first degree or second degree connection is difficult for them to steal your content. Right? So we did our homework and brought all of them to our ecosystem. So they were engaging. He was having this. So we brought again the principle of speaking to peers. Our engineers were talking to the engineers of the hospital this and then we introduced hackathons within it. So now we even partnered with, with another company in electronic fly, the Yellow Box, to have an electronic version of the yellow box. The outcome of this is that we were able to establish trust with a top leader on a personal level, because he was addressing pain points and providing solutions. He got into conversations and booked meetings, then people, then he was the one introducing into systems, you know. If you don’t even have run recognition. Imagine to follow the leadership because you’re having a you prompting engagement and people will trust you. That’s what that’s the story of the of Belgium.

Bill Sherman And what I love about that is it worked on several levels. One, you found the right advocate, someone for whom it was personal on multiple levels, right? It wouldn’t have been authentic if you just tapped someone randomly within the organization. But if you say, this is my story as a cancer patient, yeah, this was the challenge. People tune in and you create the space for a conversation where other people who have had similar experiences can start coming in and you start creating a movement. But really, ultimately you were looking to reach the hospitals and create visibility at a government level on this issue. And the way to do that was to create that movement so that they couldn’t set that aside and say, this is lower priority. This is what instead, this is what the people are saying they want.

Clemence Sop Exactly. Yeah. That’s exactly what we did.

Bill Sherman And I love it. From a thought leadership design perspective, because if you had said, how do we get the attention of government for this issue, it would have had a very different approach and probably not worked as well because you didn’t have the movement underneath.

Clemence Sop And even the credibility, because imagine if we came, if we started, you know, talking about this issue as InterSystems, as a brand, as a company. Right, right. We had no idea. It’s like we had to do a lot more. I’m not saying that we were not credible, that we had to do a lot more works and get there. We had some learnings and this also applies. If not login back to the phone to the point you mentioned about being authentic, right? We saw it with this authentic face and we suddenly blew up. So, so many people. I’m telling you, we had so we are a landing page where we were capturing some of those stones.

Bill Sherman I can only imagine how many stories were coming in. Some of them probably heart wrenching, right?

Clemence Sop Exactly. And so we called we reached out to a few of them and said, wait, this is not just a one person moment. Let’s meet and let us record some of this. Have a video version of your stories. We had wine going stories the first recording session. You know, we get the very mistake that our smart cookie always do. We added the InterSystems, a brand on it, right? That was a big mistake because we we’re held accountable by the audience. Is another marketing campaign. Are you guys serious about it? Right. Then we had to change everything again. If you look at one person, one reporter online, you would not even now you would associate the entire system to all the top leader, right? But then we had to take everything down. So you we people trust people. So you have to be authentic. And when you start putting yourself out there, people will hold you accountable for what you see.

Bill Sherman But one patient, one record started as the tag line. Sort of the platform of the movement is other than a tag line tied to the organization.

Clemence Sop Yeah, certainly. That was it.

Bill Sherman I love how that came together. And if you’re enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about our podcast. Please leave a five-star review at ratethispodcast.com/ltl and share it with your friends. We’re available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps as well as thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcasts.

Bill Sherman And so then. I want to talk about getting attention in a noisy world. We’ve talked about algorithm, but you and I had a great conversation about sort of mental frames, filters and the spam filter and how we have to overcome that for any idea that’s in leadership. So what do you mean when you’re talking about mental frame filters and spam filters? And then we’ll get into how do we move beyond them?

Clemence Sop Yeah. You know, I like to always have statistics and I’m not being asked about them. You know, Gardner Lincoln, they came up with a lot of research. People already consumed a lot of information online before the pandemic, said that during the pandemic eating place. And we haven’t gone to like a wall where people were just eating this up. Consumption of knowledge has really increased. The baseline is over 80%. Not all in our lives are active listeners. We are not the only one to know that. All the brands, everybody knows that. Therefore, what do they do? We all fall back on data platforms to bombard. There is just a saturation of knowledge or content online now which are see, I mean you can recognize that the chat gpt2 is now is.

Bill Sherman At least for now. We’ll know in a couple years if we can’t tell the difference. But for now, yeah, you can spot it.

Clemence Sop Yeah, I got it in this ever evolving landscape.

Bill Sherman Right, right.

Clemence Sop You know, you can spot that. So every seven seconds a feed is reactivated, is renewed with new content right on Twitter. It varies from partners to platforms. On Instagram, the same thing. Every time you refresh, you have a whole new different content a so and in a bits of the field. All our orders are on data platforms to. Prospect. There’s an increase in prospects and that is happening now online. Which to me has led people to believe what I call the mental spam filter. You know, if you accept a LinkedIn connection required, 90% of the time it feels anti-vaxx that you invited someone to your living room. The first message, the second way suggested a start me. So people have built that mental stand feedback and they are conscious about what knowledge is irrelevant to me. So they need to filter through. There is a lot, but the filter through and if is if it’s not relevant to them, why can they keep reading? That’s for me, is the foundation behind that.

Bill Sherman So I agree. We’re all far more skeptical at invite requests. What shows up in our feed? But how do we establish relevance if that’s what everyone is hungry for? Recognizing we can’t be relevant to everyone. How can you be relevant to a few? Or maybe even some?

Clemence Sop Yeah. My advice is you cannot just start a thought leadership campaign or publishing content for the sake of publishing. I always say, what is your need? You need to have a nation. Need to have a target already. Why should people care about what you are, what you’re sharing of? What value is that then? So once you’ve identified all of that, guess what? Your experience on all the little platforms diminishing. You’re not going to go back. So the algorithms are designed to yours and use are the best experience. Utilize the plot in learn what you like as an individual, what you engage with. And that’s how you feel. You can design what you say, what you would like to see. And so if somebody sharing content that is relevant to you and the algorithm is showing you that and you like it, you will keep showing that thing. I also see it sharing content and being relevant with a niche, the target audience, the purpose and the reason why they should care about content.

Bill Sherman And to build on that. You’ve touched on this several times, but I want to call it out. Is that level of passion and authenticity. You’ve got to care about the content that you’re talking about, almost to the point where there’s this sparkle in your eye, that joy of engaging in it. You and you can’t fake that, right?

Clemence Sop No, you cannot fake it.

Bill Sherman And so whether you talk about your champion in Belgium, who became the person who elevated the conversation, they had to come at this willing to say, let me share my story because there has to be a better way, right?

Clemence Sop Yeah. Yeah. That’s exactly. So let’s talk about it from a B2B standpoint. Right. Like this. How the leadership engaging with people online this digital platform. So people platform people talk to people. Think about it when you want to buy something they say on Amazon. But this is my experience. I can always speak for myself intuitively. I go and look at the reviews before I make a motion. I, I read the reviews. What is that? Is credibility. Are you reading a review from a brand? No. You’re reading a review from people who are telling you about their experiences. Dog leader establishes that trust, right? When he’s talking about authentically what his experience is. You know, what the trends then what the trends on the market recommendations. So he’s relevant and he’s saying that from a personal point of view, that’s how you can build trust with people online.

Bill Sherman So I want to shift a question for a moment and I want to turn. We’ve been talking about brands.

Clemence Sop Yeah.

Bill Sherman I want to turn the question to you. Where is your passion for thought leadership? So. If you had a voice. What would you advocate? Right.

Clemence Sop I know that’s a very personal growth. Yeah. If I had a voice, I would advocate, which is what I already do. I would advocate for providing opportunities and deals at the margin.

Bill Sherman Say more please.

Clemence Sop I come from a very poor community. Right. And I would like to know that, you know, I one of the bad lottery I had I heard one of my colleagues say that one of the I thought he was a beautiful thing, you know, because when I look at my peers from ideally I did not have access to education. There was a clear and decent, distinct difference between me and my soul. Kind of, you know, my I didn’t have access to education. Yeah. Like here in America being taxes, right? Right. Taxes paying money. And then I have a brain. My peer is married, probably male, with a lot of children, and is probably the single a third wife to a man in a village by the differences, opportunity, exposure to knowledge. I, I believe that, you know, the cure to poverty is not money. It’s exposing people to knowledge. So that’s what I’m a strong advocate at, providing opportunities so that I got this opportunity as a child when I was eight years old, to get access to education so that we can find and identify that potential and provide, because we never know, maybe we can find a next Einstein, right? By investing and giving access to education to get his voice at the margins.

Bill Sherman Absolutely. And that and. It’s not opportunity to elevate people and help them find a way to reach whatever destination they want and challenge themselves to grow. But yeah, it’s the tension on opportunity, right? If you don’t have the opportunity, there’s a lot of wasted intellect.

Clemence Sop A lot. A lot of wasting time. Indeed.

Bill Sherman So. I want to ask you this question as we begin to wrap up. You’ve been practicing thought leadership in high end luxury. You’ve practiced thought leadership from a data science perspective for an organization. What advice would you give yourself based on what you know now and thought leadership that you wish you knew earlier?

Clemence Sop I would say that I was late. Who made it to me? It took time for me to understand the value of thought leadership, and it all came through learning and testing. So I wish that I was open into this aleo and that’s what I would like be more open. And the other advice will be for anybody going into thought leadership, identify a need and please leverage the principle of peer speaking of peers online because you’re just wasting it. So I thinking you’re wasting a lot of time when you try to reach out to so many people at the same time, people with the same, with the same affinities speak the same language. Now you have the you can get the engagement sooner than later. That would be my advice.

Bill Sherman That’s fantastic. I want to close with a final question. Who’s work in leadership, whether it’s a book on your nightstand or someone that you respect and admire. Should more people be aware of and know about?

Clemence Sop Oh, wow. That is a fantastic question. Doctor Denis Mukwege, my absolute hero. He’s a Nobel Prize winner. And he a physician, who is based in Cornwall. And we called him the women fixer that’s what he studied in Belgium and as a physician, and dedicated his life to yours and going our way. Yes, we receive little women who have been abused by the, the, you know, war victims and, you know, give them medical care. I think he’s a he’s an advocate of just lifting all those up, instilling, you know, promoting them to gain self-confidence and has done a lot of good work in, a mental health care and trauma from my health care. So I think that we need the need more people need to know about the work that he does because it’s just fantastic.

Bill Sherman Wonderful and for those listening, will leave the notes to find him in the show notes. So go ahead and take a look and you can learn about that individual. Thank you for joining us today. Clements.

Clemence Sop Thank you very much.

Bill Sherman Okay, you’ve made it to the end of the episode, and that means you’re probably someone deeply interested in thought leadership. Want to learn even more? Here are three recommendations. First, check out the back catalog of our podcast episodes. There are a lot of great conversations with people at the top of their game and thought leadership, as well as just starting out. Second, subscribe to our newsletter that talks about the business of thought leadership. And finally, feel free to reach out to me. My day job is helping people with big insights. Take them to scale through the practice of thought leadership. Maybe you’re looking for strategy, or maybe you want to polish up your ideas or even create new products and offerings. I’d love to chat with you. Thanks for listening.