From Artifacts to Action: A New Leadership Paradigm | Sean Stewart

---

Turning Everyday Objects into Tools for Effective Leadership

A conversation with Sean Stewart on how you can change your leadership perspective by learning to interpret everyday objects.

In this engaging episode of Thought Leadership Leverage, host Bill Sherman converses with Sean Stewart, an executive coach, keynote speaker, and historical leadership expert at Past Forward Talks. Sean’s journey from maritime historian and archaeologist to thought leadership is both fascinating and insightful, providing a fresh perspective on how objects can help us gain clarity and insight into our problems and leadership challenges.

Sean recounts how his background in maritime history and archaeology led him to realize the profound impact that objects can have on people. He noticed that individuals often become overly focused on their internal struggles, losing perspective. Objects, he found, can help externalize these problems, allowing people to step outside their heads and view their issues more objectively. This shift in perspective is crucial for effective problem-solving and leadership.

Delving into the art of interpretation, Sean explains that as a historian or archaeologist, one seeks meaning in objects by placing them within a historical context. He has adapted this skill to the modern world, using objects to help leaders and teams connect with their stories and challenges. For instance, he describes using an ancient sculpture of a small, stylized horse to illustrate how simple, straightforward objects can serve as powerful reminders of lessons learned and goals set, helping people avoid getting lost in their thoughts during difficult times.

A turning point in Sean’s career was a visit to a 5th-century Byzantine church, where he encountered a broken mosaic of a laurel wreath—a symbol of victory. This experience led him to question what true victory means in the context of conflicts and disagreements. He realized that many battles are fought for the sake of fighting, rather than for meaningful outcomes. This insight became the foundation of his coaching method, which encourages leaders to focus on their overarching goals rather than petty disputes.

To get his message out, Sean emphasizes the importance of starting small and simple. He suggests giving brief presentations to large audiences, using a single object to illustrate his points. This approach not only captures attention but also makes complex ideas more accessible and relatable.

Sean is currently working on a book that explores leadership through objects, showing the merits and opportunities of this approach. The book begins by laying a foundation of ethics and morality, which Sean believes are essential for effective leadership. It then moves on to practical techniques for using objects to tell stories and reinforce lessons.

For those interested in incorporating objects into their work, Sean offers practical advice: start by selecting four random, unconnected objects and creating a story about life in the early 2000s. This exercise trains the mind to see connections between objects and the people who interact with them, developing a keen sense of interpretation and storytelling. By repeating this exercise with different objects and themes, one can quickly master this technique.

Join us for this episode of Thought Leadership Leverage to gain actionable insights and innovative approaches to leadership from Sean Stewart

Three Key Takeaways:

Externalizing Problems through Objects: Sean Stewart emphasizes the power of using objects to help individuals externalize their problems. By focusing on an object, people can gain a fresh perspective, allowing them to step outside their heads and view their issues more objectively.

Historical Interpretation for Modern Leadership: Drawing from his background as a historian and archaeologist, Sean demonstrates how interpreting objects within their historical context can offer valuable insights for modern leadership. This method helps leaders connect with their stories and challenges, providing clarity and direction.

Practical Techniques for Leadership Development: Sean’s innovative approach includes practical exercises, such as creating stories with random objects to develop interpretation and storytelling skills. His upcoming book will further explore leadership through objects, emphasizing the importance of ethics and morality, and providing techniques for using objects to reinforce leadership lessons.

Sean presents a unique and interesting approach to leadership, if you are wondering if your leadership is as interesting take a moment to read this article by Peter Winick.

---

Transcript

Bill Sherman Can thought leadership be something physical and tangible, something you can actually hold in your hands? All too often we think of thought leadership is abstract, an idea that’s encoded in some way, whether words or diagram, an image or every consultant’s favorite. The two by two matrix. I want to take a look at how thought leadership can be encoded into physical objects, expanding your audience’s perspective and reminding them when they need the idea the most. We talk with Sean Stewart. He’s trained as an archeologist and historian. He now works as an executive coach and keynote speaker for past Forward Talks. In today’s episode, we’ll explore the concept of encoding ideas into tangible objects to help make ideas memorable for your audience. Sean will also share how and as an archeologist and maritime historian, he found himself in leadership development. Finally, we’ll talk about how artifacts can become a silent coach.

Bill Sherman I’m Bill Sherman. This is leveraging thought leadership. Let’s begin. Welcome to the show, Sean.

Sean Stewart Thank you very much. Happy to be here.

Bill Sherman So today I want to explore with you something that you and I have had a conversation around this concept of object oriented thought leadership. How do you change people’s perspectives through not necessarily the written word or even, you know, a framework, but an object. And to start down that road. I believe you were trained as a maritime historian and archeology. How do you get Salt leadership from that?

Sean Stewart That’s right. Well, I, I didn’t read the my start in maritime history and marine archeology. And I suppose the thought leadership transition happened when I realized how useful and interesting objects are to people. And I understand I understood quickly one thing, which is that when you are dealing with people, whatever problems they have or issues they’re facing, circumstances their end, whether they’re business or personal. People tend to get lost in their own head. They get too focused inward, thinking through the problem. The thinking of thinking what an object does, so to speak, is it’s objectifies the problem. So I’m removing your thoughts from in being overly inwardly focused. And we’re looking at the object. And the object now represents a point of view. It represents in the case of historical objects and items and represents a historical experience. So the object has a kind of authority. It has a back story to it. And you are now thinking through not my problem, my issue. What do I do? But oh, what is this object saying? What is this object telling me? And so now what you’re doing is you’re stepping outside yourself a little bit and you’re able to get some perspective, but you’re doing it in an interesting way. So you’re not just talking about some theory or framework like you said, but you’re talking about comparing your issues or your situation now with what might have happened as to what the object represents. And so you essentially end up being in a dialog with the object, which is another way of saying you end up being in dialog with yourself.

Bill Sherman And I want to dig deeper, but I want to say before I do that, go back to something that you talked about, the ability to interpret an object, right? Now, that’s something that you’ve been trained to do. And there’s an entire field of interpretation of whether we went out into the field and uncovered literally something or brought up to the surface in the case of marine archeology. But. What goes on in that process of interpretation because it’s an artifact. That is founder recovered but is not created by the individual. And so if we get into that conversation with the object, there’s a there’s a creator or user of that object separated from us in time. Right?

Sean Stewart Correct. Correct. So what I do is I expose the art to the interpretation is there is a certain scale to it, there’s a certain experience that you gain, but it’s essentially an art when you’re looking at when you’re dealing with interpretation is looking for me. So as a historian or an archeologist, you’re looking at an object and saying, okay, how does this object fit into a time frame based on that? What can we what deductions can we make about what people were thinking 2000 years ago, for example? However, what I’ve done is just pivot to the modern right and to say, okay, this is an object. How does it relate to our story? Right. So for example, I have in my possession here a copy of a seventh century B.C., sculpture of a horse. So it’s very small. You can hold it in the palm of your hand. It’s stylized. It’s almost, an impressionistic piece. So the artist was not making a copy of a real horse, a real made, you know, horse that appears in In the Wild, as it were. But it’s a stylized sword, so it’s waist is very, very narrow. While spline. It’s the head is exaggerated. Its tail was exaggeratedly long. So, yeah, we could look at that object and say, well, what does that mean in terms of, its place in history as an offering to a temple, as an offering to the gods, you know, to what extent does it encapsulate divine meaning? But now you can take a look at that and say, well, clearly this object was embodying ideals that were considered noble. And we know that because it was placed in the temple. And in terms of interpreting what that means for us to say, okay, well, what if I postulate it just for the sake of fun, that this horse represents a model of ideal leadership, right. So you could say that it was waste. Reminds us, for example, that a good leader has the potential to be flexible, that can move left, move right, respond to the situation. Right. Because of course its four legs are planted solidly on the ground in sculpture. It also reminds us that the opposite is equally valid, right? A good leader might just stand in one place, rooted to the ground, stubborn, holding the ground. And it’s up to you. Symbolized by the long nose and the big head of the big brain. That implies it’s up to you to discern the difference. Right? And you think, okay, well, that’s quite straightforward and simple, but sometimes I say very often the simple thing is what’s going to help you out? The most simple moment of clarity. You don’t have to think anything labels down. You just say, well, is this a situation where I need to be flexible essentially? Or is this a situation where I need to be stubborn and stand my ground, essentially? And why? Now you’re in conversation with the piece and you’re interpreting this piece against your own life story, right? And sometimes I find that it’s just that little nudge, you know, just getting out of your own head, even for a couple of seconds, that will help you clarify things and simplify it. So I suppose.

Bill Sherman Well. And there’s a couple pieces. One. You can take that sculpture of the horse, put it on your desk. Whether it’s a home office in the background of a zoom background or at work, you know, and people will see it as an object. Right, right. And decoration. But you have a layer of meaning that you’ve encoded into. Right. Yes. And so it’s there is a tangible reminder for you.

Sean Stewart Correct, correct. And sometimes that’s all you need. And you can imagine very easily on a phone call, zoom call. And you’re becoming frustrated or something’s happening and you start to, you know, you start to get really, you know, laser focused on the problem and then your eye just falls on the object. Anyway, you know, it’s like, well, you know, usually I’m too stubborn. My, my, my ear coaches suggest that I might be too stubborn. I’ve had, you know, feedback forms. And I’m now looking at that wasp like waste on the horse, like, Yes. Maybe I should be a little flexible. And that’s sometimes all it means. Just a little jog at the crucial moments, you know, and it might help you say, well, what if I were flexible here? What would I gain from? And then you do it and voila! Look what happens.

Bill Sherman Couple other pieces that in this object oriented, I want to call out, not only is it visible, it’s intangible. And a lot of thought leadership is not tactile or tied to something that’s tangible. Yes, you could draw a two by two matrix with its elegant simplicity on a whiteboard. Well, but how do you put a two by two in your hands? That’s a tough question. Where you run your hand over the figure of the horse.

Sean Stewart And the other thing there, as well as you can look at something like a sculpture, an object from many different angles. So it’s not just looking at it from the one angle, like when you look at a painting, you’re looking at a painting from the perspective of the artist wants you to see it. So you have a viewpoint and you’re looking into it from that viewpoint, right? With a sculpture, you can walk around it, you can turn it upside down. You can say, okay, look, it’s this thing now and it’s that thing that lot of the situation and leadership is like that. It’s very context based. It’s very much dependent on what you’re facing now. Just because you led well last week doesn’t mean you’re necessarily going to lead well in different situations. So you have to change your perspective and become, you know, a conscious of the context in which you’re leading. And having that three dimensional elements to the sculpture or object helps to put that in your mind. To remind you of that?

Bill Sherman Absolutely. And it also evokes a sense memory as well, which is different. And so what I want to ask you is a little bit of the story, because it feels like there’s an Then you had at some point. We have you with your training as a historian and archeologist. We also have you doing leadership development work. When did you decide to merge the two? When did you first bring a horse or a similar piece in your work?

Sean Stewart Well, it evolved reasonably slowly. I wouldn’t say there was one moment. There were a series of small ones, but I can give you an example of one place where I really had a spark. If you’ve ever been to Athens, and if you haven’t, I recommend a trip to the Greek capital. And everybody goes to see the Parthenon and the Acropolis and so on, and that’s great. However, there is back behind the Parthenon. Back behind the Acropolis. I should say that the foundational remnants of a fifth century, what we would call Byzantine church. They didn’t call it that. But anyway, let’s go with that. And in the base of that church, there is a broken mosaic. Right. And it’s a mosaic of a moral race. Right. That the Olympics, the victors are in the delegates and it’s now actually been moved to the museum. And I was looking at this thing and I thought, you know what? This just reminds me of Michaela. How could I use this? Like a broken mosaic of about Laurel? And I thought, you know what? Most people problems, you know, how that could be solved is just consider what your terms of victory are. So a laurel wreath is a symbol of victory. So when you get into a conflict with somebody or your disagreements or whatever the case is, people tend to go down the rabbit hole and they start to fight the Bible through the battles, like make it distracted from the terms of victory. So if you have that, I had made a copy of the mosaic and it hangs on the wall. And if you look at it, you think, okay, whatever is happening right now, I have to ask myself always, what are my terms of victory? Not for this little particular contest and then right now, but overall, what are we trying to achieve as a, as a company, as a department, as a person? And how is this argument subtracting from that or adding to it? And the the key point here is that if you are engaged in and a conflict or a disagreement that is aiding your progress towards the goal. Fine. If it’s distracting, that becomes, you know, the proverbial pissing contest. Drop it. It’s not the fight work winning. It’s not a fight worth pursuing. And that big laurel wreath there just goes right on the wall and it’s always looking at you. What are your terms of victory? How do you know when you’ve won? What are you trying to achieve?

Bill Sherman And it invites metaphor to build because, yeah, I’m pointed out it’s a mosaic, right? Yeah. It’s not that there is one, you know, painting on stucco, but it’s an assembly of little pieces that come together for victory. Right. How do that two arts fit together, you know, within me as an individual or me and my team or my whole organization. Here’s an extension of the metaphor that’s natural, which doesn’t feel strained.

Sean Stewart Right? And so, to answer your initial question, I finally just I was helping something else, actually. And this object just popped into my head. I said, you know, and I just use that phrase, terms of victory. What are your terms of victory? And it really help this person, that gets in prayer. And I thought, you know, there was another one. I was like, opens at You know, this actually is proving to be useful people. But, you know, it’s interesting. It gets them out of their self, objectifies their problem, and they can work through it with much greater clarity. So that’s when I started to design these courses and these this, you know, method of coaching, I suppose you could call it’s to sort of see problems and the key issues and opportunities through, through the objects like that. But just get back to course and really kind about your point about the mosaic as well made because there’s a little corner of that mosaic which is broken up and lost in antiquity. And it made me think, you know, you could run with the metaphor even farther and say, usually our terms of victory do tend to get broken, right? This you’re very rarely told. We complete entirely to perfection what you set out to do. And so, you know, life happens to our goals, right? Right. However, if you substantially have achieved your terms of victory, have substantially achieved what you set out to achieve without allowing yourself to be distracted unnecessarily, and so on and so on, you consider yourself successful.

Bill Sherman If you’re enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a five-star review at ratethispodcast.com/ltl and share it with your friends. We’re available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps as well as thought leadership, leverage, dot com forward slash podcasts.

Bill Sherman So this journey obviously for you if we talk about terms of victory, right. You’ve been working one on one with individuals one to small group. How do you get this idea of conversation and dialog through object. Out into the world. And how do you get people thinking today? And where are you thinking taking this? Because I think it’s a different approach, certainly to leadership or in getting this idea out into the world.

Sean Stewart It’s a process. You know, it’s a process of going from the small to the large. And the idea here is to give presentations again, just a little 20 minute presentation, to a large audience, you know, to a type seminar, perhaps, or a keynote speech or something like that. And you’re reaching 300 to 400 people and what you’re trying to. Because the idea so elegant, simple in its in its essence. You don’t have to have the objects that I have. What you have to do is just think along those lines. Keep it simple. You know what we’ve just discussed, and people can start to bring up one of the things I do in the workshops. Tell people to create your own objects, like think about what you are, what’s a known weakness in your style of leadership. You know, people have pointed out to you and what object will symbolize a potential way forward. Right. So it could be anything. It doesn’t have to be an ancient artifact. Be anything you say. Oh, this object will remind me not to be unnecessarily, unduly stubborn. For example, as I know I’m prone to be, you know, for instance. Right? So I think that it works quite well. If you can take one object, stand on the stage, deliver the message and say, look, this is the example of how it works. And then go, for example, one object for me, like using an object that’s quite easy to understand, this is an essential part. So I have a Mycenaean sword from its 15th century BCE sword. And I can talk about the, sacrifice that Agamemnon made me, killed his daughter in order to sail save Detroit. And the thing I talk about with that presentation is knowing ahead of time what you’re willing to sacrifice to achieve your goals, because he didn’t want to sacrifice his daughter to be able to set sail from hours. Right. But he had to. Odysseus basically talked him into it. So I go to the story. But then what was the result of that? Know he was successful. He sacrificed his daughter, he sacks Troy, and then his wife.

Bill Sherman Killed his home. And yeah, Clytemnestra is not at all happy right about. That’s right.

Sean Stewart Do you think like, that’s an ancient story? And so what about the ancients trying to communicate, right. So. Well, we can take the essence of that story. And I would say to you, when you start your business, you’re working in a department. Be careful, know ahead of time what you’re willing to sacrifice to achieve those goals. We just talked about Sam. Victory. No ahead of time. What you’re willing to sacrifice and whether it’s worth it to you.

Bill Sherman Because to make sure that all of your stakeholders are aboard in that conversation.

Sean Stewart And exactly how you see what you’re doing right now, but you’re engaging with it and looking at, oh, absolutely, give it this moment. And you think, oh, that’s, that’s get all my stakeholders on board. And it’s oh, that’s for you.

Bill Sherman Then immediately and before that point, we’re touching across a story that has been told millennia quite loudly. Right. And whether or not you have encountered it, you know, your reading, your education, etc., it’s one that can be shared. And there’s a little bit of a shadow of Joseph Campbell and, the ability to plug into, those stories that resonate with us. Right. And, and different reasons. And so one of the things that I love about this sort of object oriented approach is that you could take. That sculpture of a horse that you could talk to young teenagers who were having their first taste of pure leadership. Captain of a sports team or something like that in school, all the way to senior leaders who have been leading large organizations for decades. And the same object can speak to each of them. And he can evolve with meaning over a career. And I think there are very few things that have that level of elegance within and relevance at the same time.

Sean Stewart And it stays with us because these are our shared human stories. For example, we talk about Ukrainians a lot, right? So people are not, geared to hear things about Ukraine. While I have some many years ago, traditional Ukrainian mace. So it’s a spiked ball with a handle, and it’s a symbol of authority, authority in Ukraine, which comes ultimately from politics and so on. So Cossack, the word Cossack is Turkic and it means free. And so the word Kazakhstan is the land free, literally. And so these were married bands of robbers, tough guys living in a tough neighborhood. Right. But here’s an interesting thing. Real about their way of appointing leaders. These were people who had a flow of authority. So it wasn’t the chaotic organization where they had a power structure and so on. But they elected their leader. So within their own right. Right. And when they appointed you and this is the interesting thing, they had a ceremony. They stood the person at the appointed head man, the leader in the in, in a place and then the his peers surrounded him and his peers then pelted him with rotten fruit, vegetables and insulted him for ten minutes. Right. Then they bestowed on him the symbol of authority. And to me, I’d look at that and say, well, what are they trying to do with that? You think, well, it’s pretty clear. It’s like you are not bringing power to your position, right? Your position is is you’re serving through your position. You’re serving the position. Position isn’t giving you power. You didn’t bring in something inherent to this. Your position is what gives him power. And so when the Cossacks did this, they were basically making the point. Don’t let it go to your head. It’s not you. It’s the position. Right. And I think that’s a lesson that has to be learned time and time again, especially in today’s world where, you know, we have too many senior people taking advantage of their perks and their privileges and so on, and forgetting that they are serving the position. Position is not serving them right.

Bill Sherman Well. And I hear echoes in that. The theory of the king’s two bodies. Right?

Sean Stewart Right. Yeah.

Bill Sherman Is that where there is the physical body and then the political body? And it’s interesting how. Your example of, you know, pelting a leader with fruit and vegetables before taking on a role? Maybe it’s not, you know, the HR sanctioned promotion track, you know. Welcome to the town hall. We’re going to introduce our new CEO.

Sean Stewart But yeah, exactly, exactly. But what’s interesting about the story is once you once you encode that story, once you learn the story and you say, okay, I can buy myself a cheap copy of the Ukrainian based, put it on your desk. And the thing is, you will now remember that’s that it’s not you like, remember, Caesar, thou art mortal. Right? Right. Right. You will remember that. That it is. It has meaning for you. And somebody could come in and take away the mace. And then who are you? Right. So if you’re not serving the people through your leadership, you’re not a servant of the people through your leadership. That race will and was in the past taken away. And I think that’s a timely reminder for people to get their or, you know, their priorities straight. So why did that? Why are you, again, in terms of the bakery and why are you in this leadership position? If it’s just the money and the perks? Well. You know what I think.

Bill Sherman Too shall pass.

Sean Stewart Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Bill Sherman So, Sean, if I remember correctly, you’ve got a book in the works.

Sean Stewart Yes. I’m just in the process of editing it now. So I’m basically giving like a kind of a make room approach, you know, so little chapters of varying like lots of codes.

Bill Sherman So he’s in some ways around the world with objects in it, a view of leadership through object.

Sean Stewart Yes, exactly, exactly. It’s showing people the merits and the, the, the opportunities that this approach has. So I start off essentially laying the groundwork and giving examples of how and why leadership has to start with a sense of ethics and morality. And if you don’t have the sense of ethics and morality, then leadership is probably going to fail. And then once you have established that knowledge and then we move on to certain techniques like the horse and the whistle and sword. I was talking about the things that you might pick out of that and choose to remember or, you know, get objects yourself that tell those stories. Yeah. And then carry with you, as you correctly said, the next 30 years of your career. And.

Bill Sherman And it could be something that you hand off to a protege. Or you know, winds up having a generational piece as well. Right.

Sean Stewart Right. Speaking of generational pieces, I was just, talking about a stone that a Roman woman, called Julia. No. Claudia. Pardon me. Claudia, we know nothing about this woman. Apart from the fact that she had this name and it was written in stone just what she had done. So she was a joy to speak to. She made well in that, you know, nothing shocking to us, but. But that’s what she wanted to be remembered as. And so I asked about, you know, here’s a recent idea, but what was to say to the two ladies? Write down privately at first what you would like your professional epitaph to be. What do you want people to remember about you as a profession? Right. So probably you’re not going to write down the increased sales by 4% in the third quarter of 2022. Right. It’s going to be something inspirational, something that you can teach the angels. And so now here’s the trick. Hey, $100 or whatever it is to have a professional calligrapher write that on a piece of parchment, right? And then hang it over your door of your office. And even if you’re really dead. Try this as a thought experiment. Hanging it outside in the corridor will be your office door from the outside. So now the whole world can see what it is that you value in your own leadership, right? It’s not a hidden secret thing. It is there and you will be tempted to live up to it. Not because it’s a corporate model or something in that corporate handbook. It’s you talking to yourself like, this is what I want my leadership to be remembered as. And if I’m not living up to it, I want my people to come in the door and say, listen, what are you doing? That’s the idea.

Bill Sherman And that’s powerful in a different way, because you’re holding yourself to your own words, right? Right. And I like that idea of creating your own artifact. Right.

Sean Stewart And also, Billy could live. Well, we know everything we know about the past comes. In fact, perhaps objects or writings have survived. So there’s no reason this object that you created now won’t still be here 300 years ago. Maybe that’s the only thing about your life that’s about. Found in some dusty cupboard 300 years from now, and it becomes the subject of somebody’s PhD. And it’s hard to figure out what this person bought them back, you know. But why not? I mean.

Bill Sherman What was life in the 21st century like? And.

Sean Stewart Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Bill Sherman What was it? This object here.

Sean Stewart Yeah, yeah. And that’s what happened with this woman, Claudia. We wouldn’t know anything about her at all if it wasn’t about survival of that stone and with with that inscription on it. So why should you?

Bill Sherman So as we begin to wrap up. I want to ask a meta question for you. So there are a number of people who listen to this podcast who practice thought leadership momentum, often through writing, through speaking, etc.. What advice would you give them if they were thinking about incorporating an object into their work? Where do they start with that process of interpretation? Storytelling, recognizing they don’t have the training you do, but what’s a step or two that they take?

Sean Stewart You know, it’s a skill that you develop this by practicing. It sounds like taking objects, right? Here’s a here’s the thing we do in the museum. That doesn’t mean that the collections you have in museums are by definition rad. It’s just random ones survived. So what I’d like you to do, or any of your practitioners who are listening, just take four absolutely unconnected objects. So an empty bottle of pills, a computer, a chair and a pillow, for example. And I want you to use those. I want you to tell me a story about what life was like in the early 2000s. Right. You’re going to have to tell that story to people that you’re not drunk. So you got to arrange these objects in a way that makes the story clear, consistent. Now, what you’re training yourself to do about exercise is to think about what connects objects to each other and what connects objects. So the people who are looking at. What are the common denominators to start with? And once you develop that technique, you can now take any floor up. You could walk down the street and look at for rent first for then you see when you walk out the door, spend your commutes making a museum exhibition. So and then change that. David, what do we know about life in this era? What do we know about you know what. What would somebody in the future make of this? What does it mean about morality? Like choose a theme every day, choose a different theme and choose the first four up that you see, and you’ll become good at it pretty quickly.

Bill Sherman That’s a great piece of advice, Shawn, and a powerful way to start thinking about the curation. I’m not only objects, but ideas. How do these intersect? How do I present them to an audience that may or may not have the same knowledge, cultural background, experiences, and perspective that I have? So how do I make this accessible? What can I assume and what do I have to made explicit?

Sean Stewart Yeah, and I think the idea is first start with what unites us as humans across centuries, across cultures, across languages and so on. The if a genius story that we were talking about is still being told today. Not because we’re Mycenaean Greeks. No, because the story has fundamental things, elements that we all can relate to. What is the nature of sacrifice? The horror and the sacrifice? Horrible, yeah. When is it too much so. At what point does sacrificing become so much that even though you burned your success, you achieve your goal? It’s not worth having done it. So that’s a human story. So until I get through a Mycenaean sword, when you could tell the same story through any number of things. And that’s what I mean, like practices, how can you tell the same story using a glass, an empty bottle, the glass. I’m sure you can make a story about this. You know, you probably could.

Bill Sherman Yeah.

Sean Stewart Yeah, exactly. That’s the point

Bill Sherman So, Sean, I want to thank you for joining us today. This has been a fantastic exploration into the intersection of ideas and objects. And I really appreciate you taking time for this conference, and.

Sean Stewart I absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me. I appreciate that. Enjoy the talk very much.

Bill Sherman Okay. You’ve made it to the end of the episode, and that means you’re probably someone deeply interested in thought leadership. Want to learn even more? Here are three recommendations. First, check out the back catalog of our podcast episodes. There are a lot of great conversations with people at the top of their game, and thought leadership, as well as just starting out. Second, subscribe to our newsletter that talks about the business of thought leadership. And finally, feel free to reach out to me. My day job is helping people with big insights. Take them to scale through the practice of thought leadership. Maybe you’re looking for strategy, or maybe you want to polish up your ideas or even create new products and offerings. I’d love to chat with you. Thanks for listening.