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Launching a Thought Leadership Function | Erica James
Successfully standing up a new thought leadership role at your organization.
An interview with Erica James about realizing the need for thought leadership at an organization, making the proposal, and creating a new role for the company.
Once you realize that your company needs a full-fledged thought leadership role, how do you make that vision a reality? What information should be included in your proposal? Who do you need to buy-in, and what would the role entail?
These are some of the questions we explore in this episode. Our guest is Erica James, Director of Customer Marketing and Thought Leadership at Medallia. Medallia’s award-winning SaaS platform, the Medallia Experience Cloud, leads the market in the understanding and management of experience for customers, employees, and citizens by utilizing a proprietary AI technology to turn personalized and predictive insights into tremendous business results.
The Journey
We explore the journey Erica has taken; from her instinctive talent for thought leadership, to pitching and developing her formal position as thought leader at Medallia. Erica describes how she knew the position would benefit the company, the way her personal love of thought leadership played a part in getting executive buy-in, and the way her new role increases employee satisfaction throughout the entire organization.
Erica shares with us the way feedback from current clients is a source of inspiration, as she takes their requests for information and turns that into a drive that shapes content. She discusses the many people who have come out of the woodwork to work with her now that her position is formalized, and how she shines the spotlight on them (both internally and externally) to develop their brand.
Finally, we discuss the methods of coaching Erica employs to move others along the thought leader road. By using an apprenticeship model she is able to make meaningful relationships and then by breaking down thought leadership into bite-sized chunks, she makes the task manageable and more comfortable for new practitioners to accomplish.
This episode gives amazing insights and pathways toward standing up a new thought leadership role inside an organization, and will be useful to those looking to become thought leaders as well as to executives wanting to create a thought leadership function inside their organization. Be sure to listen in!
Three Key Takeaways:
- Thought Leadership is like a marching band. Everyone on the team has a unique role that adds to the harmony of the music.
- When adding a thought leadership function to an organization, start with the question, “What outcome are we trying to reach?”
- People are seeking thought leadership content that is authentic and approachable. The personal touch can carry you far!
Join the Organizational Thought Leadership Newsletter to learn more about expanding thought leadership within your organization! This monthly newsletter is full of practical information, advice, and ideas to help you reach your organization’s thought leadership goals.
And if you need help scaling organizational thought leadership, contact Thought Leadership Leverage!
Transcript
Bill Sherman Over the past three years, a lot of organizations have been launching a thought leadership function. We’re seeing more people become heads of thought leadership. They’re curating the organization’s ideas and helping the best ones reach scale. But this role isn’t appearing by magic or because of regulation. It’s appearing because people are seeing the need and making the business case. Today I talked with Erika James. She’s the director of Thought Leadership and customer engagement at Medallia. And about a year ago, she recognized the need for someone to curate thought leadership within her organization. And so we’ll talk with her about that journey, how she recognized the need, how she made the business case, and how she explained the new role to colleagues and clients. I’m Bill Sherman. You’re listening to Leveraging Thought Leadership. Ready? Let’s begin. Welcome to the show, Erica.
Erica James Thanks, Bill. Happy to be here.
Bill Sherman So I’m excited on this conversation because I think one of the things that we’ve seen in a lot of organizations is the moment of recognizing a need. The thought leadership somehow needs to happen is happening but isn’t being curated. And I want to explore with you your journey on that and how medallions journey happened. So let’s start with you a little bit more than a year ago. Okay. Let’s talk about your previous role and how this idea started percolating in your mind.
Erica James Yeah, wonderful. So I’d say that the development of thought leadership and best practice content has been a theme throughout my time at Medallia. It’s always been that sort of moonlighting job. Second hat that I’ve worn, having had the opportunity to have a wonderful set of mentors that I was able to shadow, sort of build my own tool kit, my own library of thought leadership, best practices, but also curate my own point of view as a result of listening and learning from them. I think what I began to realize is that this concept of building out libraries, building out roadmaps of content that is targeted at helping our customers evolve and grow with us as well as within their organizations, given the technology that they’re using. Someone needs to look after that, right? Everyone can do a little bit of smattering here and there of it. But if we’re not coordinating it in an aggregate way, identifying where we have gaps, understanding where we need to refresh and will position our point of view because time things are happening rapidly right in the space. It dawned on me that maybe there’s some looking after of this at large that could be done. And that’s really sparked the idea in my head of making a proposal to own that function.
Bill Sherman So we’ll dive into the proposal in a minute. But where I want to go is you were global head of retail practice and you said, okay, I was sort of moonlighting doing some thought leadership on the side, but that was it independent as an initiative? Was it something that was in your job description or were you saying, hey, this needs to be done and someone needs to put these thoughts on paper?
Erica James That’s a good question. I think it’s something that’s always implied in in positions, particularly ones that are consultative in nature, working with customers. But I would say that the space to create and form that thought leadership. Right. And refine it over time was the night job. So it really took someone who was extremely interested and committed to developing that in order to find the time and space to create it, along with, of course, a community of other thought leaders. But there wasn’t necessarily a core function that was driving that. It was more, Hey, you’re all smart folks. You all have a great point of view from working with customers and engaging with others in the space. We expect to see some products and fruits of that labor, if you will, But it wasn’t necessarily, if you would call it a percentage of one’s job to deliver on that.
Bill Sherman Right. And so whether it’s moonlighting or midnight oil or weekends, it’s really noticing the patterns. What are the questions that are being asked by customers? What are the things that they’re worried about versus what are you hearing from research or from product? And how do you make sure that the information flows both ways? Right. And that’s sort of where I think a lot of people start independently exploring this world. But there’s a shift to go from saying, Yeah, I can do that on my own to someone needs to curate this at the organizational level. Talk to me about that internal conversation you had with yourself.
Erica James Yeah, I think. I realized. We’ve got so much powerful content and such talented expertise. If we really mapped this out and made almost a machine out of it, if you will, or created a machine with an engine and a driver, we can be doing so much more. We could be packaging up our content in in different ways to suit different audiences for the thought leadership that they’re looking to consume. We could cast a wider net. We might touch on this in a bit, but you know, obviously we’re intending to deliver this to our customers, but hey, this is great content. This should also be consumed the people that aren’t working with us today. And so that shift of, you know, 10 to 15 people working on this as a moonlight job versus one person kind of looking after it and then pulling together that awesome community of folks to all be in lockstep. We could really do something powerful here.
Bill Sherman So to extend on your metaphor, you can have a number of independent musicians playing at home, right? One person playing the guitar, one person playing drums, etc. but they’re all picking out what they want to work on or what seems relevant from their point of view. It’s only when you bring them together that you have a band right now. You could even push the concept for further because you said like a machine building a marching band, right, where everybody knows their role and they’re in time and in step together and doing something that’s truly remarkable, right? And so I think there is sort of a maturity model sort of between, hey, we’ve got social media, why don’t you put something out? Or individuals feeling like that was a really good question from that client conversation. Let me capture it so I don’t have to answer it the third time. Right?
Erica James I love the band orchestra metaphor. I have a great friend and colleague of mine has used that with me many, many times. And I love what you’re saying too. I just want to double click on this. There’s the producer who’s making sure this is happening and that there’s somewhat of a roadmap. There’s the subject matter experts, the violinists, the, you know, whomever, and then there’s a whole boatload of other individuals that are responsible for making sure that that thought leadership gets cascaded. Right? It’s not responsible necessarily for the subject matter experts to go market and distribute what they’ve put down on paper or recorded in some type of an event. It’s for, for example, customer success teams, professional services teams, people who are working with customers to realize, this is what I have to select from. This is what my customers are looking to solve for. Where is there a match? I’m going to bring that forward to them. And so I just I love that. And I think it truly is a village, a band. What if you use it sits with a lot of people.
Bill Sherman Well, and you highlight, I think, three different types of roles and skill sets for thought leadership that often get conflated the ability to create a piece of thought, leadership, whatever that is, you know, to have the insight and to find an answer that people will care about, the ability to curate it, to say, okay, how does this connect to where we’re investing time, resources, media attention, all of those things? And then the final one, the ability to deploy. And if you’re asking someone to be a social media maven, someone to have deep insights on the organization strategy and by the way, be brilliant. Not only you’re burning the midnight oil, you’re probably a recipe for insomnia.
Erica James Yeah, absolutely.
Bill Sherman So let’s cycle back to you mentioned the moment when you said, okay, I think I’ve got a proposal. I want to take this idea. Talk to me about that. How did you get buy in for this idea of someone needs to own the responsibility for thought leadership and be minding the shop?
Erica James Yeah. So I have the pleasure of working in the customer organization media, which is overseen by our chief customer officer. And so I think as I sat down to sort of put pen to paper on this, I thought, you know, ultimately there’s a passion that I have for this type of work, having served as a key opinion thought leader myself and also sort of informally started to function in this role of bringing people together to create this content, distribute it. But I thought, you know, I need to be clear on what we’re trying to solve for, right? This isn’t just a pet project or a passion area for myself. And so I really started with what is the outcome that we’re looking to drive towards by doing this, right? If we’re going to put someone in this position, create space for this, we need to make sure we’re clear what we’re trying. To achieve. And I think where I landed in thinking about two again, the organization that I’m in, the customer organization is really first and foremost. This content is intended to deliver, but rather to nurture the our install base. Right. Making sure that our customers who have graciously decided to collaborate and partner with us are maximizing what they can add of their engagement beyond even the technology. But the learnings, the research that guides the point of view and the expertise that we have to offer. So really making sure that I was line with retention of customers is a fundamental outcome here. Also, employees, we have a brilliant team members, ex practitioners of customer experience, employee experience, industry experts. They have a lot to say. They’ve got a lot of experience. They’re also actively learning with all of their engagements with customers today, New point at creating new point of view. Like I want to make sure that they’re feeling like they’re able to deliver that and it’s not such a night job. Right? And we’re able to pull it into the day to day and perhaps remove some of the hurdles of producing that. So keeping our employees happy was another thing that I think really resonated with my leadership when they brought this to them. And then ultimately, we are creating some world class content that is also very interesting and appealing to people who don’t work with us today. And so I think there’s a real natural linkage there to where we can create some visibility for the organization, the professional services team as well. You know, if there’s an opportunity to bring in some new logos, let’s do it. And so I think being really clear about there are some hard business outcomes to this, both from a revenue perspective as well as in employee happiness and retention. And that really resonated from there. It just took off.
Bill Sherman One of the things that I’ve heard from other organizations is they’ve stood up a thought leadership function is there’s a natural tendency, almost a gravitational force, to treat thought leadership like content marketing, which means you’re looking at lead gen and demand chain. And it sounds like you considered, okay, is that going to be our North Star for thought leadership but decided against it, Not with an allergy towards generating opportunities, but saying that’s not our first focus.
Erica James It’s an interesting point. I mean, I think and this is, you know, my point of view here, I think when you’re in a business environment, the technology space, exciting, fast-growing space, obviously, you always want to be thinking about the outcomes that you’re driving towards, how that could relate to a financial impact. But I think what was so compelling about my discussions when entering this role is that that was of an importance. But sort of in front of that, as I mentioned, was keeping our customers engaged, creating a community around thought leadership, both a community of medallions interacting with customers and also customers interacting with customers. And I was thrilled to sort of see that at the out of the gate, that’s where we’re going to focus, make sure that’s happening. And then when we identify relevant and appropriate opportunities to kind of embed a cell, if you will, a subtle cell, then that’s fine, because it’s all in the spirit, too, of, you know, if I’m going to put something in front of a customer that sits behind a conversation around thought leadership or an asset of thought leadership, it’s going to be a compelling linkage to a product or a service that truly will help them in the vein of the problem or the challenge of that piece of content is discussing and trying to help them solve for. Right. It’s not a random sale, if you will.
Bill Sherman Well, and by one of the things that I’ve seen with working with creating thought leadership is when you have actual people with actual problems in mind, your thought leadership assets wind up being much more targeted, specific and deeply relevant to them. Right. Rather than you say, okay, I’ve got this abstract avatar. I’ve never met any of these people, but I’m sure they’ll be interested in this. And so by focusing on existing customers, that impacts the assets that you’re creating and also I think allows for much more immediate feedback in terms of, okay, is this relevant to you?
Erica James Yes. I just want to mention I love the use of the word feedback there, because one of the sources that we look to when we start to roadmap out, okay, what are the topics we want to cover in a given quarter or a given year? Is looking at our own customers feedback. I mean, we are a feedback company. We solicit feedback directly from our customers. They can also share unsolicited feedback. Obviously combing through that and understanding, Hey, you know, I’d be interested in more content around X or more content around Y and being able to make the case of it’s not just one piece of feedback, it’s actually quite a lot. And in some cases, perhaps from some of our largest, most important customers. So that is a source of to help drive us in terms of where we go. And then of course, where applicable when appropriate, getting feedback on how that went and actively making tweaks for the next go is a part of the rhythm.
Bill Sherman Well. And given that you’re in the technology space as well, thinking of thought leadership from a sprint perspective where you go, okay, what is minimum viable for leadership, then let’s do a sprint to corroborate something and see is this relevant? How are people going to lean in or are they saying, Yeah, that’s interesting, but that’s not solving my problem?
Erica James Yeah. I love the sprint methodology and the sprint methodology, but also the parallel there. In fact, I was recently in a conversation with someone and sort of being very open and honest in the conversation around some of this content takes a while to create. It needs to be thoughtful, It needs to be, in many cases, rooted, rooted in proven evidence, approach facts. And so to in some cases ship the content. Let’s, let’s say in an event format only once, perhaps only in one language, you’re missing an opportunity to capture a much broader audience. And so we’re testing out concepts such as creating thought leadership content in an event format and then making sure that we are repeating that with different subject matter experts in different languages across different regions, while still, in this case maintaining a small group session format, which is sort of what we’re trying to preserve to allow thought leaders to engage directly with customers and customers to engage with customers. And that moment has made planning much more easy. Right. I now know that we’re going to be delivering X across four events in four regions every quarter. One make sure that our customers are being taken care of. And two, it sort of checks the box, making sure that we’re taking a real global approach with our content.
Bill Sherman So I really love that sort of figuring out and understanding your audience and saying where the gaps that we’re not meeting either because we’re focusing on one modality or one region, one language and not others, and that awareness of your audience, again, because it’s a real audience rather than an abstract audience, you know, you’re like, wait a minute, why don’t we have any attendance from these regions? Well, we’re not making it easy for them either by time zone or language.
Erica James Absolutely.
Bill Sherman If you are enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about the podcast. Please leave a five-star review and share it with your friends. We are available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all major platforms as well as at LeveragingThoughtLeadership.com.
Bill Sherman So let’s continue down the road of getting a false leadership function set up. Okay. And we’ve talked about figuring out what are the internal metrics that you’re going to plan to stick around. But how long did it take for you to get internal buy in? And what was that process like to make this happen? Because it’s not often that people are standing up new functions within an organization and saying, hey, this isn’t covered, but it needs to be covered.
Erica James Yeah, it’s a good point. I will say that I benefit from the fact of that role model is I would say no longer a startup. We still have a lot of the that startup mentality. And so there definitely is. People do embrace the test and learn and piloting. And so that definitely worked in my favor. But I think from a buy in perspective, I mean, first and foremost made sure that the executive sponsor was on board, right? Was excited about what we were going to drive towards, understood the metrics, the outcomes we were aligned there gave me a ton of great feedback to make sure that when I did then get to your process. Question expanding further the communication around this function, it was founded in sort of the executive’s vision, right? Which of course is cascaded down due to their direct and their direct and their direct. So the buy in, I would say, at that executive level was we were pretty, pretty aligned early on. But then as many folks do, it was sort of through an internal roadshow that I took the function, the outcomes, the products, and also the asked, right. Because I was know I’m a team of one and many all of the subject matter experts that I work with do not report to me. So needing to get buy in from the leadership of some of our expert services advisory services leaders to say, Hey, I’m going to try to make it an easy and enjoyable process because I by the way, I know that a lot of your teammates are hungry for this type of interaction, but I will be looking to call upon them. And so this is what this means. So I’d say that happened over the course of about 4 to 6 weeks and then took it to the org at large to make sure the people not only understood the function, but also where there are opportunities. Right. To reach out to say, hey, Erica, you know, I’m interested in this. I’ve got a lot of content in this area. How might we work together? So it was actually fairly smooth. I will be quite honest. And luckily, the leadership embraced it with open arms. And to my earlier comment, I definitely saw it as an employee satisfaction and retention opportunity. And so we’re really open with identifying early. Hey, here’s some candidates that I think would be interesting for you to connect with to begin to crank out some content.
Bill Sherman So when you had the vision to set up this function versus where you are today, what has surprised you in the difference over the last year?
Erica James A lot. I think my own ability to sort of persevere through it in a new role after being, you know, in a, a more traditional role for many, many years at the company. But jokes aside, I think what surprised me is people really have come out of the woodwork they’ve seen. So I’ll just sort of interject here with an example. Something that I piloted and launched was an internal program meant to reward and engage some of our emerging and also seasoned thought leaders. It was internally branded as the Medallia Experience influencer program. And I think what people started to see is a select group of individuals were starting to pop up in different places, being put in the spotlight internally and externally. And it’s really been amazing to see people who have actually not had an existing relationship with reach out and say, Can I book time with you? Can I kind of talk to you about my own personal development and the personal branding goals? And then also this work I’m working on as a result of hearing feedback from customers. And so that has been overwhelmingly, I think, the most surprising. I would say the other has been we sort of went into this thinking to my comments earlier very narrowly this content is for customers customer first. I always say to folks, I’m approaching the development of this content with a customer first lens to make sure that we’re really giving our customers what they need and what they’re looking for. And I think what I realized is there is a broader audience that will be interested in engaging with this content and potentially using this in demand generation activities. And so that I think, made me feel it validated that the content, while it is first and foremost for our customers, is really important and impactful in the space of customer experience or employee experience and could resonate with potential customers as well.
Bill Sherman So do you have time in your day to create any thought leadership yourself, or is most of your time dedicated to curating and helping build up people to practice thought leadership within the organization?
Erica James That’s a good question. And on some level, I’m sighing internally as I react to that, because I do I do really enjoy putting my own spin on things. I would say since taking on the role, my individual contributions have definitely gone down. However, I still try to push myself to find the time and space to do a little bit of that. But what I would say, and for anyone listening who is in a similar position of having been a thought leader, looking to then become more of an operator or a leader internally is while you might be curating the content, the point of view of others, there’s always an opportunity to influence and give feedback. One Having sort of been in the space of creating your own content before. And two, if you do have a really good understanding of your customers needs, which coming from a customer facing role for seven years, I did. One shouldn’t shy away from saying have we thought about maybe messaging it this way? Or I’m a little confused. Let’s step back a bit and get at the root of what you’re trying to describe and then flesh it out differently. And people have been really open and receptive to that, particularly some of our more junior emerging thought leaders. And so I think there’s a way to engage in the development of it, perhaps as a coach or an advisor. Meanwhile, obviously a big portion of the role is making sure that it’s happening and that it’s happening at scale and in a coordinated way.
Bill Sherman So you talked about coaching. And I think one of the things that a lot of people who are asked to step up into a thought leadership role is they want to do well, but they’re not sure what good looks like. How are you coaching?
Erica James Well, that’s a good question. I would say in no particular order. Prior to this role, when I was in a management position and had my own team, I definitely pulled from the apprenticeship model of mentoring and coaching. So bringing people along with me to shadow myself in situation or others. So the way that’s looked in this role is particularly for some of those folks that are early on in their experience, pairing them with someone more seasoned who also happens to be operating in an area of expertise that that other person is interested in. Right. So that the connection feels relevant to potentially co deliver something or just to shadow and watch. So I think that’s one piece. I think the other two is breaking down this idea of becoming a thought leader into more bite sized digestible chunks. I think some people have the tendency to look at 50-page white papers on a consulting company’s website with the author’s name there and thinking, one, I don’t have time for that. And two, how will I ever get there? And so one thing that we’ve tested out with those that are willing to dip their toe is let’s do something with lower F for lower risk potentially, if you want to frame it that way and an opportunity to also add in tweak. And so one of the avenues that I’ve coached some of these folks towards is publishing on LinkedIn. So not just a post but a LinkedIn article and then offering up services of copy editing, reviewing some stylistic things as well as some tools and templates to make it feel a little bit more manageable, but also allow someone to feel like, Wow, I’ve put something out there into a social network of where I have upwards of a thousand connections who have a thousands and thousands of connections. But that’s a much more manageable, comfortable exercise arguably than, like I said, the 50 page white paper.
Bill Sherman I think there’s this natural gravitation between the white paper, the book towards long form, right? It’s the prestige format that’s been recognized that you’ve seen. You’re in a top tier journal article. Right. Or these things that are the apex and take a long time. And whether you’re thinking from a software perspective on Agile, those are long bets. They take a long time to produce. And if your audience and we’ve been talking about is it relevant to your audience, you could be 12 to 18 months minimum to get one of those done. You could lose the moment for the message.
Erica James Exactly. In that I mean, and in the moment content, I don’t know. I mean, I’m reflecting on what I read and when I pause largely in a scrolling type of situation online. And it’s the headlines, the takeaways that feel like I could do something with this today or tomorrow or the next day. This isn’t old news. And it’s also to your point on like long form, it’s in a it’s in a package that can be consumed over coffee before I even get into my day. So I love that. And I think that that’s something that I’m trying to share with folks who are looking to engage. And, you know, I’m actually not receiving much resistance in terms of the 50 page white paper. People also, you know, even if they are more seasoned and there’s their craft, they’re looking for also some more. I’m saying informal as the word. While that doesn’t mean to diminish the content itself, but personable, approachable ways to deliver content. Podcasts obviously being one of them. That’s really picking up with folks more so than the traditional long form.
Bill Sherman So I think one of the things that’s happened and there’s been a couple vectors that have pushed it, certainly Covid being one of them, social media being another, where more interested in a human voice from the thought leadership rather than the generic third person, the white paper that has a pure corporate voice. We want to know whose idea this is and either be able to have a conversation or hear why they think that way or ask them a question.
Erica James Absolutely. And in fact, I liked that you brought that up. One of the you know, like I mentioned, there’s not always necessarily a call to action to buy something at the end of this, because, again, we want to make sure we’re drip dripping content along the way and customers to just give them food for thought. But on that food for comment and connecting them with individuals, we do often like to offer up the opportunity to connect with the author or hosts or other individuals as a part of that same community. So we have an expert’s on demand offering at the daily right. So we like to sort of close with if you’re interested in connecting, say with Phil, you can reach out to him here. Obviously LinkedIn is a very informal and open way to connect with folks, but if we are looking to try to track who’s interested in this content and are they looking to dive deeper beyond the event, beyond the asset, we can get into sort of tracking that.
Bill Sherman As we begin to wrap up, I want to ask you a question because you’ve been both a creator of thought leadership as well as someone now curating thought leadership. There are a number of people who are interested in getting into thought leadership, either as the next evolution of their career or even now I’m seeing students who are saying, I want to go into thought leadership. What advice would you give to someone who wants to get into the field of thought leadership?
Erica James Great question, and I wish I had called upon someone to give me some advice earlier, you know, back in the day. But I think the advice actually that I would give here is actually similar to what I might give in another function. For example, if you’re entering a company that sells a product or service, getting to know the product or service first really well, becoming an expert in it, and then perhaps stepping in a different role where you were talking about it at large or devising the strategy. The parallel here would be I think I found the shift into this role of curating thought leadership at scale and engaging with a community of thought leaders much easier. Having been in the role myself. Understanding what it means to create thought leadership, a very broad term, how to go about it, understanding what lands, maybe what doesn’t. Having the opportunity to receive mentorship in it. Right. All of that, I think, and allowed me to realize, one, this is an exciting space and there are probably a lot of other people in the organization that have the same passion and I can help them. And two, as it gets to that sort of having a a strategic outlook and vision about what we’re trying to do here, really understanding where the biggest bang for our buck, both for the individual creating it as well as the organization. And I don’t know if I would have had that if I hadn’t been in the shoes of writing my own blogs, doing podcasts and hosting webinars and events they would have felt a little before, and I think so be in the shoes first of the thought leader and then move towards that, you know, curator of, if you will.
Bill Sherman Wonderful. I think that’s really good advice because if you’re going to be the coach and the mentor, you have to understand some of the internal hesitations and roadblocks that many people encounter. And there are frequent ones. So, Erica, thank you very much for joining us today. This has been a delightful conversation.
Erica James Wonderful. I’m so happy you invited me to join. And thank you so much for a great conversation.
Bill Sherman If you’re interested in organizational thought leadership, then I invite you to subscribe to the OrgTL newsletter. Each month we talk about the people who create, curate and deploy thought leadership on behalf of their organizations. Go to the website. OrgTL.com and choose join our newsletter. I’ll leave a link to the website as well as my LinkedIn profile in the show notes. Thanks for listening and I look forward to hearing what you thought of the show.
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