Moving from Corporate to Solo Thought Leadership | Dan Pontefract

Peter Winick

$Moving from Corporate to Solo Thought Leadership | Dan Pontefract | 528$

Lessons for leadership, publishing, and market research.

An interview with Dan Pontefract on growing as a solo thought leader, author, and speaker.

Moving from internal thought leadership to being a solo act means having to take on a lot of new roles.

Marketing, research, and publishing all fall on your shoulders now.

Are you prepared?

Today our guest is Dan Pontefract, who after a long prosperous career at companies like Telus struck out on his own as a leadership strategist, change expert, keynote speaker, and award-winning author. His fifth book Work-Life Bloom: How to Nurture a Team that Flourishes will be released in November of 2023.

Dan shares his journey from working at Telus as Chief Learning Officer, using the company as a lab with the ability to real-time test ideas to teaching the models he helped create internally, to external companies guiding others through leadership development and culture change.

As an author much has changed over the ten years since his first book was published. Dan shares his experience both with untrustworthy and fantastic partners in publishing. In addition, he explains why you should be ready to market the book yourself, the big differences between self, hybrid, and traditional publishing!

If you are just getting started or about to break out from corporate thought leadership, Dan provides valuable advice for thought leaders at any stage!

Three Key Takeaways:

When doing market research look at others in your sphere at your level. Then look at those above you and determine what sets them apart. What can you learn from what they are doing?
Be continually and continuously adding to your body of work.
Thought leadership can take a product that might not land you a meeting and open the door to a more interesting conversation.

If you need a strategy to bring your thought leadership to market, Thought Leadership Leverage can assist you! Contact us for more information. In addition, we can help you implement marketing, research, and sales. Let us help you so you can devote yourself to what you do best.

Transcript

Peter Winick And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I’m the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage and you are joining us on the LinkedIn live extension of the podcast, which is leveraging thought leadership. And today my guest is an old friend, Dan Pontefract. He is a leadership strategist, a change expert, a speaker and an award-winning author. And his career has been really, really interesting. We’ll get into some of that today. And if you’re watching this in black and white, you’re going to be disappointed because there’s more color than should be on two screens at once today. So anyway, welcome, Dan

Dan Pontefract Saint Peter. So glad to be here to be back. In fact, thank you for a second invitation.

Peter Winick Yes. So let’s start with there’s so many things I want to do this. There’s two big pieces I want to talk about. One is the fifth book. But before we get to that, your sort of career launch has always been really, really interesting to me because, you know, in my work with working with folks like you, we see that a lot. So you are what I would call an inside person, right? You are a staff person at Telus, a big, big telecom company up in Canada. So tell us about sort of what it was like having a job and then building out this pathway to thought leadership.

Dan Pontefract Yeah, you’re right. I mean, I’m a recovering, I suppose, insider. Now that I’m. I’m five years out coming up this fall, I guess I’ve always been like that. And it’s it started really when I was back at BCIT, British Columbia Institute of Technology. Here I was a punk, really kind of a 26-year-old. And I had a dean and associate Dean who gave me the keys to downtown campus. I’d barely had opened six, nine months prior and said, Hey, can you help fill it with, you know, career changers and people who want to take things? And I said to myself, Well, this sounds like a great gig. And so, I was kind of an insider in a publicly funded academic institution by the government visa in Canada. And I was in charge of career changers without any public funding whatsoever. So here I was, 26, trying to figure out, well, how am I going to create education programs that are part business, part leadership, part technology, and convince people that our programs, whether they’re part time or full time, could lead them? This is circa 1998, Peter.

Peter Winick Yeah.

Dan Pontefract I could lead them to gigs and jobs and things in the dot com era. And I learned so much. But I was that insider in an organization whom was publicly fund publicly funded, whom I had to work against the grain because of all the bureaucracy and the academics, etc., to kind of create this different experience for people who are willing to put down a bucket of cash to help fuel and propel their career change. So that was where it really started for me. It was like 25 years ago.

Peter Winick Tell us a little bit about that. Tell a story from the standpoint of you’re I mean, now you’re more senior in your career. You were chief learning officer, if I recall. Yeah. So typically, if I were to say, describe the roles and responsibilities of a chief learning officer, it’s setting the direction, implementing the programs, picking up the vendors for the learning solutions inside of the organization. But in essence, you kind of me that’s when you started writing your book and you sort of became the internal motivator at the company. They were really supportive. So talk about sort of that trajectory and then when you parted ways, but you didn’t part ways, right? You changed. One of the things I always like about what you did is a lot of people make binary decisions, but you just sort of redefined your role with the organization and say, I don’t want to be here full time. I love you. You love me. I love the company. What does that look like? And maybe tell that story a little bit.

Dan Pontefract Yeah. Yeah. So after BCA, it was SAP that was six years where I was still figuring out how do you be a chief learning officer internally and externally? Meaning we were building our programs and things for our internal employees. But then I was starting to delve into the external side, sort of helping customers and consultants and partners with, well, how do you learn our products and how do you become better versions of yourselves? When I joined Telus in oh eight now it was a culture change opportunity to begin with internally, certainly not just me, but I guess I was part of the catalytic combination that was going on there. And yeah, I sort of used the Telis example since I joined in oh eight to be publicly writing and speaking about leadership, culture change, etc.. So I got very vociferous right there.

Peter Winick And what’s really cool about that is when you look at the continuum of where thought leadership come from, you have academics, you have consultants, but you’re sort of at this moment an inside person and you have a laboratory of a zation. So it’s not just this, this academic, abstract, theoretical, it’s things that you were actually doing inside of the business that you could measure the outcomes and the impact of.

Dan Pontefract I think that’s spot on. If I were still British and saying something that was quite British, so the spot on point about that.

Peter Winick Where you stop being British.

Dan Pontefract The accent’s gone. So people are like I thought is Canadian will happen to me. So yes, it was a it was a it was a melting pot, it was a playground, it was a lab. And, you know, yes, culture change takes time. This isn’t a light switch opportunity. So we would try things like So, you know, the big thing these days, Peter, is kind of meta and being in the sort of avatar digital world, right? Well, back in 2009, we partnered with a company called Avaya, not a significant company, and we said, Hey, we want a virtual world. Can you help us build a virtual world literally oh nine. And so we would run leadership conferences, onboarding and orientation coaching sessions. We ran an MBA program in there as avatars, right around where people from across the country and there was a playground. There’s an example. We do gaming gamification like stuff you’d never see before. We put because it’s so Canadian. It was like we make we’d have virtual speed skaters and you’d be learning our coaching methodology, being a speed skater coach with this team that you’re trying to beat other speed skater teams across television. So you’re right about the spot on comment. We would try all kinds of stuff and I’d learn a lot what work, what didn’t. Lots of creative license, right? And then when I got essentially bored about culture change and leadership development stuff, and I was writing two of the books that come out by that point, I pitched my CEO and CEO the idea, Well, hey, we’re doing a pretty good job here internally. Why don’t we? Sell that externally.

Peter Winick So in business use, can I take a cost center and make it a profit center? And that’s.

Dan Pontefract Exactly it. And so I relinquished my role from an internal perspective as CEO, but started something called Tito Teller’s Transformation Office. I sort of handpicked a few troubadours, called them to go help us. And for four or five years before I left on a full time basis, we went and helped all kinds of our clients and customers with culture change, leadership, development, purpose and all kinds of funky technology, things that they wanted to get into.

Peter Winick I think that. Eh, that’s brilliant from a business model standpoint, but I think that takes more courage than many have, right? Because in a shared services environment inside of an organization, we don’t have a choice. This is the group you learn, this is the learning development group, you learn the marketing group, you use whatever you go out into the open market. You know, there was a risk that nobody cared, right? That you did not get market validation, right? So I think it forces you to make that bar higher when people are paying with real dollars versus internal dollars.

Dan Pontefract I’ll tell you this, though, Peter, one of the true benefits of that model was not necessarily the PNL or the bit that goes to a you know, a $12 billion company is going to pick up, you know, six, $750,000 in revenue. That’s not a huge lift, right? Yeah, But the biggest two factors that came out of that whole experience of mine was that a, the sales team loved bringing us to their customers. So because we would talk about things that wasn’t I.T. or technology or tell us.

Peter Winick Either a minute because I think actually the you know, with all due respect, telecom is a commodity. There is a few businesses that are less commoditized than that. So if your salespeople are looking to sell a big deal, they probably can’t say your stuff is better, quick or faster, cheaper than the competitor. I mean, they could say it, but in reality it’s comparable. A differentiator is, Hey, we’ve got everything our competitor does and then some. Let me have you bring them one of our folks and talk about culture, talk about leadership. So the use of thought leadership as a differentiator is to fight the commoditization, to get a salesperson, to have an interesting conversation that’s really hard to put a dollar value on. But the fact that salespeople love it, I think that tells you all you need to know.

Dan Pontefract Now we’re cooking with gas, Peter, as they say. That’s precisely the point.

Peter Winick And the that by the way, do people say that? I don’t.

Dan Pontefract Know. I guess if we’re being environmentally friendly with natural gas, right? Yeah. So that and that’s just it. So the really smart and voraciously willing to help their clients in ways that were differentiated. We’re using TIO the Tells Transformation office me and the team to get into these situations where their bag of telecom is not being sold. What they’re bringing is empathy, they’re bringing in leadership. What they’re bringing is a differentiated view on something that is not necessarily what was normal.

Peter Winick And quite frankly, they’re bringing a reason for someone to attend a meeting on the other side, right. Like invite to a meeting to hear the pitch from the telecom guys. I probably have a dentist appointment that day, you know, So that’s interesting. So then ultimately you decide to sort of go external, but when you did that and just touch on that, you just redefined your role at the organization and made them a client, which is brilliant, right?

Dan Pontefract But brilliant. But basically, it was one of those situations where I knew that I was at some point going to have to put my big boy pants on Peter and, you know, become Dan Pontefract independent solopreneur or a company of one. If I really wanted to make a go of my own thought leadership and not just always tethered to SAP or us.

Peter Winick Yeah.

Dan Pontefract And so there in lies. The point is that after kind of thinking that through a bit during the year of 2018, as soon as January 1st, 2019 started, you know, I was no longer on the full time payroll of Telus. I was I was on retainer. And we agreed to sort of amount of hours and an amount of things that I would do, which actually included not only me still running something I cooked up five years earlier called the Teller’s MBA. It allowed me still to work with the sales team so that then I could also help them and be at times that differentiated go to market, you know, addendum to some of the sales calls. So the sales transformation office kind of work continued a bit in a way that allowed me still to be part of the sales team, helping them when necessary or needed.

Peter Winick So that’s great. So, you know, you start a business with your first client and that’s a great thing. All right. I want to shift to books because we were talking before we went live here on your fifth book is coming out in a month or two. And what’s been different about the process this time, as well as the sort of state of publishing. So how long ago did your first book come out?

Dan Pontefract Ten years ago this month, Peter Flat Army was ten years ago with Wiley.

Peter Winick Got it. So. Maybe tell a little bit about, you know, you’ve experienced big publishers and then different publishers and seen them. I mean, the market’s changed radically in ten years. Give us your take on how you meet the needs of the market.

Dan Pontefract Yeah. Great way. And also, I’d recommend anyone tuning in to Josh Bernoff and everything he writes right about writing good business books these days in the new market. Josh is amazing. Yeah, so I was one of those guys very lucky. I was delivering a talk and I think it was the end of 2011 somewhere and there was a wily editor in the audience who approached me afterwards and said, Have you ever thought about writing a book? I was like, Yeah, here’s three chapters. What do you think? And a week later, that editor who’s amazing, Don Loney, said, Yeah, we’ve got Pat Lance the only already fables are, okay, we’d like you to write and your first person voice, can you do that? And so that became Flat Army the first book. And so. Where do I start, Peter? The Wylie office. The people who I worked with were amazing. I can’t say enough between Don and Jan and Marica and all those folks like Flat Ami. They just. They. It was just such a treasure to work with them. But then, shortly after publishing book number one, bean counters from McKinsey came in and decided to basically nuke a lot of the satellite offices, of which Flat AMI and the team I worked with were one from the entire team that I had been working with where exited from Wylie. And here I wrote a book about collaborative human culture. And I thought to myself.

Peter Winick Oh, timing is everything, right?

Dan Pontefract Irony alert, right? Totally. So I tried desperately to make it work and it didn’t. I just felt that, you know, my skin and shriveled up right in front of my body and it was stuck on me. It’s like that I can’t work with an organization that’s done this to people. So I negotiated my way out of my contract and became a free agent. And from there, I started shopping around this idea for my second book called The Purpose of. And a friend of mine put me in the direction of a hybrid publisher. I don’t even know what hybrid publishing was back then. So this is now circa 2014. And I was led to a group in Idaho, Boise, Idaho called Elevate Publishing. And Elevate publishing. I learned a lot from because the owner was a snake like selling snake oil. And I totally got duped by what looked to be a legitimate organization with several known authors, of which I will not name. But I know that I got duped because about six months after publishing my second book, The Purpose Effect. I was provided information from an insider in the company that it looked like the publisher was going to go bankrupt or fold or take all our money and run. And I was like, Oh, great. And so this lovely insider found a way to ship me all the books that were still sitting in a warehouse. And I suddenly became a free agent again. Peter because I wasn’t going back to big publishing and now is burned by an American hybrid publishing company. And I’m thinking myself, God, I really have a lot of luck in this publishing world.

Peter Winick Dono and a third publisher that wasn’t afraid of you at this point is really like a dog named Lucky. No. So who’s this?

Dan Pontefract Torched Canadian, bald white guy who doesn’t seem to do well with book publishing. Should we take him?

Peter Winick Yeah. What’s in this book?

Dan Pontefract So I spent a good year meeting with a bunch of different, like, big five and ten hybrid publishers. I was leaning to going back to Big Five. And then I thought, Well, I remember why I left because they didn’t care about me. And I’m not you know, I don’t have a name like Cynic or Pink or Grant or Lindsay. I’m thinking myself. I don’t really want that. So then I made a decision because I’m Canadian. I said, I’m going to stick to my Canadian folks. And I then honed down to four different hybrid publishers in Canada, and I landed on figure one with Chris Lamont. And Chris has been an amazing partner in the team there for now. Three books since.

Peter Winick I got it.

Peter Winick If you’re enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a five-star review at ratethispodcast.com/ltl and share it with your friends. We’re available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps as well as that thought leadership leverage dot com forward slash podcast.

Peter Winick So talk about and so that’s really. Some of the landscape and the business issues of the publishing marketplace today. What does it take to actually sell books today? Because lots of authors talk about that, the pain and suffering of the writing of the book. And not to discount that, that those take a lot of work. But if you think writing a book is hard trade, getting anybody to buy a copy.

Dan Pontefract Yeah, exactly. Well, whether it’s hybrid or the big five publishers, Right. Right now, either editors or mostly publishers are telling you need a platform. You’ve got to have a platform, Peter. That’s the big buzzword in the author world. And they’re not wrong. But the first thing to get out of the way is that, as I’ve found, either hybrid publishing or traditional publishing like Wiley, etcetera, their marketing teams aren’t going to market your book to your liking anyway. And it’s not that they’re bad people, it’s just that their job is to make books. Their job is to distribute the books. Their job is market the book or, you know.

Peter Winick And the budget for that marketing piece has been right. You have to produce a book to get into the marketplace. Where they’re cutting in this market is the marketing budget.

Dan Pontefract Yes. So there wasn’t a big marketing budget to begin with. And unless you are, as I mentioned, like Adam Grant or Daniel Pink or Amy Edmondson like that, all of a sudden there’s a celebrity level of authorship, I would call it. Right? But everybody knows it’s the word of mouth that went wild and viral. And then there’s people like me. And people like me need to be out there on not just the socials but on the keynotes, the facilitated workshops, the client work, you know, finding ways in which to increase your mail list, etc., etc., etc.. If you think that you’re going to write a business book and you have the, you know, Kevin Costner Field of dreams, if you build it, they will come model. You’re just you’re in for a very strong heart attack.

Peter Winick So even that people like me I think that’s an interesting concept to say. Okay, so there’s one side of the coin of people like me who’s writing similar type books thematically, right? If I write about culture, if I write about teams or whatever, but then the other side is what’s a fair, comparable And a lot of authors don’t do what business people do and say, who are my comparables and say, Oh, you know, and they might say, Oh, I’m a better writer than big shot writer, this whatever. But how many books have they sold? What is their followership look like? Right? Like, how long have they been at the game and you know, how often are they putting out content, etc.. And I think that’s really where you need to put a bit of energy to say, wow, I admire and Adam Grant. I admire Dan Pink, because it’s not just that they’re great writers and great thought leaders, but they know how to keep that connection going with their followers, that they have to constantly be giving them high quality, high value thought leadership in between book cycles, which might be two years, five years unknown, or that followership will go will go away.

Dan Pontefract I did. Peter, exactly what you kind of alluded to there by hiring a company to do market analysis.

Peter Winick Yeah, against.

Dan Pontefract Eight, both my contemporaries, of which I would say are equals or in or around my orbit. And then what was that next level? So people are like Seth Godin and Amy Edmondson and Roger Martin, etc. And so I just because I’m not there, I don’t know if I ever get there. I just want to know what’s the what’s the difference between people who might be quote below me, which I hazard to suggest that is such a thing with me and above me. It was kind of fascinating, right? I mean, there’s not much to be said about just traditional. It’s like, where did you get your MBA? No one really cares per se. It’s like, who? You know, Who’s your publisher? I found that no one really cares that about that either.

Peter Winick What was it? Stay there for a second, because a lot of first time authors will say, Oh, but if I’m not with Random House or you’re blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, you know what? I’m the only dork. And maybe you are, too, that when you get a new book, you open up and look at the publisher page, whatever, because we’re curious or whatever. Most people, you know, you think about what’s the use case for a book. You light up your Kindle, your head start, and it’s, you know, they were the best of times. They were the worst of times, right? There’s no filler pages. You’re fast forwarding through that. And just because you went hybrid or nontraditional, whatever doesn’t mean that your book is anything less than 20 years ago. It probably did a signal that, wow, everybody said no. So this guy went to Kinko’s and, you know, whatever, whatever. You can’t differentiate from a quality standpoint, from an editorial standpoint, whatever many instances, its time, it’s business model. There are other reasons to choose a publisher.

Dan Pontefract You know, And that really kind of gets to the point about the three types of publishing. There’s traditional Wiley Penguin right up there. It’s hybrid. So in my case, figure one publishing, three publishing, right? But then there’s self-publishing. That’s CDP that’s going to Ingram SPARC individually, and you are taking on the entire process of writing, editing, marketing, distributing, publishing, etc. That is something I don’t recommend. I really don’t. Hybrid publishing is not self-publishing. Hybrid publishing. A publisher has to say yes to your idea.

Peter Winick And you are with.

Dan Pontefract Their entire team to build a product. The only difference is, in my case with Wylie, I might have got a 25 grand advance this time around. I paid 25 grand for better royalties and working with a team that gets the same distribution, the same effort and the same quality, I don’t want that in self-publishing. That’s terrible.

Peter Winick While and even the advance, which these days is like the Loch Ness monster. We’ve heard about it but haven’t seen it in People forget it is an advance against future income.

Dan Pontefract Exactly.

Peter Winick When you’re at the right level, well, you have to judge what that right level is to say. Is it appropriate for me to even ask for an advance? Is there a different business model now? There’s a $50,000 swing between you getting a check for 25 today and putting out a check for 25 today. But I’m sure you did the analysis and said, well, I guess I’m going to sell about this many books over this period of time. And putting that money out of pocket upfront today is a better investment for me than taking someone else’s money.

Dan Pontefract Well, and I’ll actually add to that, it’s not just a $50,000 swing. I believe that when I’m not just in control of the product and I get to work with publishers and editors and designers, right. That want to see my vision through, that don’t have that hierarchy of nonsense in a traditional publisher. I’ll add this If that platform is something that you listen to what I just alluded to, whatever 10 minutes ago and are willing to continue and want to increase because you have clients and customers, etc., you’re going to use the books in different ways.

Peter Winick So if you.

Dan Pontefract Have well, if you’re with a traditional publisher, you’re going to be buying books off the publisher for maybe a 10% discount if you’re working with a hybrid publisher. First of all, in that contract, you’re typically going to get a slew of books in advance. Yes. That show up in your garage or your office or what have you, your warehouse. And so for me at least, this is just me. You know, I order 3000 copies as part of the contract of the books. They show up, they come into my garage. I use those books as ways to build the platform. I may give them away. Contests, whatever. But more importantly, when I’m working with clients or conferences or keynotes, etc., what happens? The books can become either things that you use as enticements for the giveaway the audience, or you say, Hey, guess what? You know, the book retails for 3295. I’m going to I’m going to charge you 25 bucks a pop. How about that? And then it becomes part of like the additional part of your fee or your facilitation for a workshop. And to me, I make back the 25 Grand Prix quickly. Yeah, because I’m using it as part of the platform for all the other things that I do.

Peter Winick I think the other thing to think about is there’s a moment in time where an author’s objectives and a publisher’s objectives are aligned to about 120 days pre-launch and launch, right? Then there’s the rest of the world, Right? So I would argue that, you know, this is now your fifth book. There are still people learning about Dan coming in the front door through book one to like whatever. And it’s all good, right? It doesn’t matter. You don’t care less about your first book or your third book than you do the fifth. Now, obvious, you’re going to put a lot of energy into the new book to get it going. But you’re still selling copies of the other books all the time, which brings them into your sort of ecosystem to hire you as a speaker, advisor, etc..

Dan Pontefract That is precisely it. That goes back to the platform point. The best advice? Well, one of the best piece of advice I ever got was from my own kind of coaching whisperer book dude, and that’s Roger Martin. And those are Daniel, Roger Martin. Just Google Roger L Martin and you’ll find out more about a great thought leader. He said to me in 2015, we were working on my second book, The Purpose of Act Together, because he was being such a great human being and Canadian, and one day over a drink he said, Dan, here’s the thing. He said, Just continue writing. Continue putting yourself out there, whether it’s books. I hope you continue like as well as, you know, articles and columns, whatever. And this is what he said. Peter said, One day people will realize that you’ve always been here.

Peter Winick Yeah.

Dan Pontefract I was like, I didn’t get it. Back in 2015, eight years later. Back to your point about the five books and just continuing to write for Forbes and HPR and wherever else. Like I feel that ten years later, essentially since book one, I’m 52, but I feel like I’ve always been here now.

Peter Winick Right. Well, I mean, if you think about that today, somewhere or somewhere as plural, there’s a 13, 14-year-old kid discovering the Rolling Stones.

Dan Pontefract Yeah. There you go.

Peter Winick You know, so not that you’re Mick Jagger’s age, right, But. And an album.

Dan Pontefract Coming out soon, Peter. Can’t wait.

Peter Winick Exactly. Exactly. So cool. Well, this has been a lot of fun. I appreciate your sharing some of the behind the scenes stuff, as always, and the decision making process and the analysis that goes into that. As a five-time author and leading expert here. So any other words of wisdom you’d share with folks out there that might be in your situation or where you might have been five or ten years ago? No pressure, but this could be life altering for sure.

Dan Pontefract Yeah, I think almost to add to Roger’s point, right, don’t stop at one. So when I when I see people say, Oh, I’m going to write a book, you know, I kind of stop them in their tracks. I’m like, Are you sure you want it to be one? So if you want to get into the game of thought leadership, then I do believe you have to map out at least your first three and then hopefully, like other bits come later on that makes sense to you that don’t aren’t redundant to your thinking or writing, but ultimately you’re thinking ahead about something else. So if you want to write your autobiography, great. There’s one book you’re doing again, right? But if you’re getting into thought leaders of Please, for the sake of your audience and your platform, don’t sketch out one book. Think about how you will basically develop a compendium.

Peter Winick Really? I would push on that then. Is book doesn’t literally need to mean a book. It could be a body of work. Right? So, you know, book means published thing, but you might have three or four big ideas that you want to focus on. And maybe one only lives on LinkedIn and maybe one’s a book and maybe one lives in a suite of products or offerings or solutions. So don’t. So I would just add to that that don’t be stuck on a book as the only. Yeah.

Dan Pontefract Yeah I will. I will agree and disagree. Peter, I think I agree with your body of work point. That’s the platform I’m getting. I think using the term body of work makes more and more sense. So if you’re continually and continuously adding to your body of work in various formats, methods and ways, great. I get it totally with you. I think where I’m going with this is that books add to the credibility in the thought leadership space. And so when you do have that book and then books and then books, you know, people start saying, Oh my gosh, this individual has books. And it’s part of that sort of prestige and the credibility factor of.

Peter Winick The brand builder. Yeah, Yeah. Well, this is been great. I appreciate your time, always appreciate your work and been fun chatting with you, as always.

Dan Pontefract Dan Thank you, Peter. God bless, man. You’re awesome.

Peter Winick Thanks. To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at ThoughtLeadershipLeverage.com to reach me directly. Feel free to email me at Peter at ThoughtLeadershipLeverage.com and please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.