Unveiling the Power of Everyday Bravery | Constance Scharff

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Redefining Bravery and Mental Health

A conversation with Constance Scharff on redefining bravery and travelling the world to study everyday acts of bravery and how cultures deal with mental health.

In this episode of Thought Leadership Leverage, host Bill Sherman sits down with Constance Scharff, PhD, a trailblazer in the field of mental health research. Constance is the founder of the Institute for Complementary and Indigenous Mental Health Research and author of an upcoming book on “Everyday Bravery.”

Everyday bravery isn’t about heroic acts like running into burning buildings. Constance redefines it as the courage found in everyday life—like battling addiction, where survival alone is an act of immense bravery. Having been sober for 26 years herself, Constance knows this firsthand. Her research reveals the quiet yet powerful ways people confront challenges and carry themselves with dignity, even in the face of overwhelming odds.

Constance aims to make her research accessible to everyone, choosing to write books instead of academic papers. She believes mental health research should be available to the public, especially in the U.S., where affordable care is scarce. By blending memoir with academic research, she offers a personal and relatable perspective on the complex issues she studies.

Her journey into the field started 15 years ago at the intersection of addiction and trauma. A tragic loss drove her to explore the courage it takes to keep fighting against addiction. Her research took her across the globe—from New York’s Stonewall Inn to the jungles of Ecuador—uncovering stories of resilience and bravery in unexpected places.

Constance hopes her work will inspire others to see that recovery and resilience are possible, even against all odds. She challenges the over-pathologization of mental health in Western culture and advocates for a broader, more inclusive approach to mental well-being.

Three Key Takeaways:

Redefining Everyday Bravery: Everyday bravery isn’t about grand heroic acts, but the quiet courage found in overcoming daily challenges, like battling addiction or navigating trauma with dignity.

Making Mental Health Research Accessible: Constance Scharff prioritizes writing books over academic papers to make complex mental health research accessible to the public, especially in a landscape where affordable care is limited.

Global Perspective on Mental Health: Her research highlights the resilience found in diverse cultures worldwide, challenging the Western focus on pharmaceuticals and advocating for a more inclusive approach to mental health treatment.

Constance has an impactful blend of research and storytelling that she uses to spread her thought leadership. If you’d like to understand how Academic Research can be used to build your thought leadership platform be sure to watch this short video with Peter Winick.

 

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Transcript

Bill Sherman Let’s talk about the intersection of thought leadership and primary research. In both cases, you’re focused on questions that other people aren’t asking, but they’re questions that people should be asking and exploring. If academic training prepares you for the rigors of designing your research study, gathering data ethically, and then analyzing and reporting findings accurately, then the practice of thought leadership is very complimentary. How will you get these questions and insights in front of your target audiences? What action do you want them to take? My guest today is Constance Schaff, the founder and principal investigator for complementary and indigenous mental health research. And her research has literally taken her around the world framing questions, conducting research and putting insights into the world. I’m Bill Sherman. This is leveraging thought leadership. Let’s begin. Welcome to the show, Constance.

Constance Sharff Thank you for having me here.

Bill Sherman So I want to begin with a level set question. You have a book that’s coming out in the future around the topic of everyday bravery. Yes. I want to ask a very simple question. To start, can you define what everyday bravery is and then as the journey? I want to talk about the research that’s leading to the book and the work that you’ve done for a period of time. But first off, what is everyday bravery?

Constance Sharff The definition is actually changed as the research has progressed. And so the last thing that will come out of the book, it’s probably the very first chapter, which is the definition of everyday bravery. What I wanted to look at is the kind of courage, the kind of bravery that’s not running into the burning building or, you know, carrying a child out of a, you know, drowning situation or something like that. But what are the ways in which people act with courage as they are going through their lives? And it coming from one of my mentors who said to me said, you’re so brave. And I was like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. And it’s because I’ve been sober for a long time. And he said to me, most people are. In fact, in a week I’ll celebrate 26 years. And so he said, people don’t usually recover from addiction, which statistically is true in my world. That’s not true because that’s who I work with. But statistically, that’s true. And they said, and then people who do recover don’t go on to become, you know, internationally renowned researchers and bestselling authors and award winning authors and all the things that you do. And I was like, oh, that’s true. And so that got me thinking about courage because I saw then I started to notice the people around me who maybe weren’t able to get sober, or who passed away, or who were in very tragic situations, but still had such dignity about how they approached that. So that’s really where it where it came from.

Bill Sherman Okay. And so you have looked at this concept of everyday bravery from a research and intellectual curiosity perspective, but you’re also trying to translate the findings and the research into something that’s accessible to people.

Constance Sharff Right, right. So I specifically have chosen to write. Public books. Not as opposed to academic books. I don’t write in academic jargon, I don’t. I will be on a paper, but I generally don’t write academic papers as the first author. That’s not my focus. My focus is writing books for the public, because I want the public to have access to that information, particularly in the in the United States, where getting good mental health treatment is a challenge. And it’s a challenge to find good treatment where you are. And that’s affordable. So I write for I write for the public. I also I don’t believe in the method of that. The researcher can be completely divorced from the research, especially when you’re doing research in social sciences or humanities. If I go out into the jungles of Ecuador where I was, and.

Bill Sherman We will get there metaphorically rather than on a plane right now, but yeah. Right.

Constance Sharff Right. Yeah. But you know. It’s disingenuous and frankly, inappropriate for me to go and say, right, I’m going to take down my information and not interact with you. So I write very often from the perspective really of memoir of, okay, I went here and I went there and this is what happened. And this is the this is the interaction that I had. And then we back that up with the research, the real academic research that has been done and say, oh, wait, what? Our experience was actually backed up by these findings. I also find that it’s really. It just frankly doesn’t work to go into all their cultures and try to do quantitative research. What is percentage of people have a mental health disorder? That overlay of Western thought just gives you garbage results. So I go to the jungle and I’m like, okay, this was like to be in the jungle. And this is the way these people see the world, and I’m fascinated by it. And I want you to be fascinated by it to.

Bill Sherman So a couple observations. One. You’re describing an intersection of what I would describe as the social sciences meets storytelling, right?

Constance Sharff Correct. And very much so.

Bill Sherman Those stories elevated in a way that draws people in apps and gets a taste of the experience.

Constance Sharff Absolutely. Because I think some of the very early historical and anthropological research has been very damaging, not only to our academic perceptions of what anthropology is and what the human experience is, but also in terms of relationship building, building hierarchies. I don’t find that very useful. And so I really want to say, hey, if you could go into the jungle and meet with these people, this is what we would learn to get.

Bill Sherman So let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about the journey in the research sense okay. And there’s two sides of it. The journey that is both physical and the travels as well as the research question. I want to start with the research question before you pack your bags and we go off into the jungle.

Constance Sharff Is where the research starts, is with the research. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Bill Sherman So let’s start in the proper order before we get on the plane and off into the jungle. What’s the origin of the question? How did you come to what became a multi year study for you? What flagged what? What prompted the question?

Constance Sharff So when my mentor, you know, said to me, you’re brave. I was like, well, that’s nice. I mean, I what I try to do with any, any compliment or criticism, I try it on for size. Does that feel like it fits? You know, because sometimes people are just mean.

Bill Sherman But let be let’s be clear. Most people, when they receive a compliment such as you’re brave, don’t immediately go, oh, when I need to be in the jungles of Ecuador next week, right? And not saying that you were, but there’s a there’s a connective tissue between these two activities.

Constance Sharff Yes. Because, you know, that’s why I try things on. You don’t see yourself. This is just my life. Like. No, I lived in in Kenya and India, and I traveled in South America and the Middle East. That’s just how I live. So that doesn’t seem very exceptional to me. In the same way that when my, you know, mentor said, well, being sober is great, I’m like. It’s not exceptional to me because that’s just my life. Right. And so. But what triggered the research question was when someone I worked with actually died. Yeah. And, had not been able did not die of addiction, but had not been able to get sober and only for very brief periods. And when I spoke to her mother, her mother, right after her passing, her mother said to me, what did you love most about my daughter? And immediately my response was that she’s brave. Because despite she had so many difficulties in life, and despite that, she kept trying and kept trying. Whatever her goals were, right? Not just with recovery, but all of her goals. She got knocked down, she got back up. And I thought, you know, there’s so much stigma against mental illness. I work with a lot of veterans who have post-traumatic stress, with people with substance use problems, behavioral health issues. And I thought, you know, so much stigma. And we don’t see the courage. We don’t acknowledge it. Where else is there courage? And one of the things, because I travel so much. I’ve been in AI research. My research began 15 years ago at the intersection of addiction and trauma. And as I was traveling to speak, I would do more research. I’d use that as an opportunity to go in the field. And I really started to see trauma related to climate change cropping up, and to see what people were doing in relationship to that is really what got me. Those two things are what got me interested in this research question, because some people in some places have absolutely insurmountable problems, and yet they show resilience. And I think going back to your original question about what is bravery, I’m really coming to see that there’s an essence of resiliency in there that I don’t think is in standard definitions.

Bill Sherman So let’s stay here for example in resilience in terms of climate transformation. And. On medical adversity. So some of the Pacific tools, such as tuberculosis, for example. If you could perhaps explain that context as well as then where you’ve seen examples of this sort of bravery in your research?

Constance Sharff Yes. So I am fascinated by, the Pacific Islands and the atolls and so forth, and Kiribati and, Tuvalu, you know, they’re only a few feet above sea level at the highest points. And so they are going under. I mean, we are beyond a tipping point for those for those places. Now, there are some organizations that are doing some tremendous work to try to protect what they can, particularly I’ve seen some work in the Marshall Islands. But what do you do if your island nation, your entire place where you live, your culture is going to literally be submerged and. With, Tuvalu. New Zealand has said. Will, we’ll take you. But those Pacific islands are in a tropical climate. And the place where there’s a lot of room in New Zealand is on the South Island where it is. Oh. It is like Scotland there. There’s not it’s not a, you know, mystery why so many Scots moved there. Because it really is like Scotland. And so, you know, the Pacific clan was like, well how do we maintain our culture if you’re going to move us to a place that has that kind of climate? And what was very interesting to me, to the second part of your question, is that the Government of New Zealand expects them to become Kiwis. Well, but you’ll just be one of us, right? That that integration, that loss of cultural identity, what you see here in the United States, you see it in Canada, you will become us. We are the great melting pot. The Maori get it and they’re like, let’s have that conversation. Because the Maori understand in a very different way than the descendants of settlers, what it’s like to have your culture quashed by circumstance, by other people and so forth. And so when I was in New Zealand at the beginning of this year, I got to see that, and I got to have conversations with the Maori about what they’re experiencing with their new government. And then also, you know, what they can do for other Pacific Islanders.

Bill Sherman Thank you. So in short, could you summarize sort of the research journey and the travels?

Constance Sharff Yeah. So I, I thought I was going to be a lot more academic than it ended up being. I thought I was going to go and do lots of interviews. And so I started off, funnily enough, in New York City because I thought that playwrights, writers in general, being a writer, but playwrights in particular are brave in that they create art that shows us the world in a particular way. They make statements. Hamilton would be a great example. Some things are just for fun. But what I ended up, what ended up happening is I went and I saw plays and talked to people about that, but I went and I had lunch with some people that I lived with in India, and we talked about those experiences and how that has shaped us and changed us. I also because plays generally happen at night and I so I had most of my days free. I went to the Stonewall Inn where pride began, and I got to just sit there and see. Because to be yourself, who the expression of who you are is incredible. Especially understanding the adversity that the LGBTQ community had still has, but the very different adversity before pride began. And I got to sit in that in that bar, you know, and I got it like if the police were poke, poke poking you that someone threw a brick and a riot started. And where that went and that experience actually changed. The whole research cycle for me, changed everywhere I went after that. And I realized that this was going to be about me meeting people and having experiences and having those observations. And so then I could know where to look. For information.

Bill Sherman And where did those travels take you?

Constance Sharff So I ended up in England. Turkey. Romania. Ecuador, Australia, New Zealand, and of course, several locations of the United States.

Bill Sherman So literally around the world.

Constance Sharff Literally around the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I only I only stop because I have some real interesting research that I want to do in Africa. Probably in South Africa, potentially in Rwanda, possibly back to Kenya. I’m unsure of of the stuff’s definitely in South Africa. But I had to stop because it’s a year of living bravely. At some point you have to put a pause and then this becomes part of the next, the next research. But I’m absolutely fascinated by the truth and reconciliation work that happened both in South Africa, post-apartheid and in Rwanda after the genocide there. How does that reconcile with definitions of bravery? But that’ll be the next researcher.

Bill Sherman And I hear in that sort of this peeling back the onion. Because even like when you talk about the reconciliation committee in South Africa or after the genocide in Rwanda, those are exceptional. That’s in some ways certainly the genocide, right?

Constance Sharff I mean, yes and no. I mean, they’re exceptional is and thank goodness they don’t happen every day.

Bill Sherman And that is what I mean is.

Constance Sharff Yeah, but I don’t think they are exceptional in the sense of they happen continually. There’s the Armenian Genocide and there and there is the Holocaust and there is this, you know, so we if we can dehumanize the other. Then killing them is nothing. Then they’re chicken, right? For slaughter. And so what is? I think it is a tragic flaw in the human condition that, you know, we have to overcome. So I don’t I unfortunately don’t see it as really exceptional. I also don’t see it as exceptional because it covers huge population that thousands of people can get caught up in doing harm to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of other. Neither through actual action or just I’m staying out of it.

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Bill Sherman So it seems like with the research that you’re talking about in Rwanda and South Africa, you’re moving from an individual moment of everyday bravery to something that’s larger. Am I understanding that correctly?

Constance Sharff That’s true because there are so many examples of people who. Having through those, through those, you know, meta experiences. Right? Experienced and showed individual bravery. Because what I want to do is, is have us learn from each other what it is that we can do in our own lives to act bravely. How can we overcome the things that stop us? What are those fears or prejudices that cause are in action, or that cause us to succumb to victimization?

Bill Sherman And it sounds like there’s everyday bravery at the individual level, at the community level, and sometimes even at the national or international level, where depending on context and stressor, depending on sense of nation and identity, whether you’re living in Tuvalu and looking and going, I have to pick up and move literally not just me, but my entire community, my entire country. What does that mean? There are layers to this.

Constance Sharff There are huge layers, but it all comes from the individual’s action. So as an individually experiential. Exactly. So as I look at these meta layers right then we can distill that down. That’s where the research comes in, is we can distill that down and say, okay, well what were individuals doing to make this happen? You’re seeing this in many ways in Israel right now. When October 7th happened and people were killed and hostages were taken. If you look at the news coming out of Israel every day, the vast majority, overwhelming majority of Israelis are like hostages. Hostages? Where are hostages? That is a community, whatever you can think of. Everybody’s motives aside, the factual information is that there is a cultural movement that says our hostages are important. We are no man left behind. Society. So you see this happening all over the world that Zelensky, on the individual level, did not leave Ukraine when he could have done so and just let the country go and let Russia have it and that appeasement. He said no. I am the president of this country and I am I am leading this. I am leading this nation. Those, whether it’s on that cultural level or on the individual level. There is a lot to distill there and it is multi-layered.

Bill Sherman So. We’ve talked about your desire to research and then translate to a popular audience. There’s a lot of complexity here.

Constance Sharff As that’s why I write not articles.

Bill Sherman And be totally understood. Right? But as the researcher. What do you hope someone comes away with at the end? What are you. What are you trying to achieve? What impact are you hoping to create through the research and the writing of the books?

Constance Sharff I want your life to be better because against all odds, my life is better. And what I’ve learned in mental health research. Is that? One of the greatest obstacles to improving your life. I don’t even really like to call it recovery, because a lot of the things that people go through and call mental health disorders are overly pathologized. They are. They are human experiences. But here in this country, in the United States, we have come to think that anything that’s not just blissed out all the time is a diagnosable disorder for which we need to take medication so that we’re all in the zombie land of everything is good and everything is great. You know what? If your beloved parent dies, you are going to be devastated. That’s called grief, and it’s normal. And if it doesn’t go away in three days, you know, or a week or a month, then it’s also normal. Now there is a point where it becomes problematic. But, you know, a friend of an elderly friend of mine died a few months ago, and it was her birthday a few days ago. I’m texted her daughter and I said, I get it. Today’s hard. Right. That’s normal. So I want people, first of all, to know that fluctuations in your emotional state and in your mental health are normal. But then I also want you to know that when there are really, you know, severe, you know, things that have happened addiction, trauma, so on and so forth, that there is recovery. And most people. Don’t believe that’s true. You know, you here in 12 step programs. Well, it’s for the people who want it. Not for the people who need it. Yes, it’s for everyone that can. Create a new story and live their life in a different way. And it’s not as impossible as people think. And that’s what I want us to note. The other thing I think is so important that I want people to know is that we are more similar than we are different, and going to these very remote populations. The window dressings of what they do is different, right? The rituals and so forth look very different. But the underlying ways that people address their mental health are. Very uniform, except in the West with the with the push for pharmaceuticals. When you don’t have pharmaceuticals, there’s a very strong, very strong correlations between cultures.

Bill Sherman Got it. And so you’ve. Spent a career now researching, translating. Continuing with further questions. I want to give you a magic wand and let’s look. 1015 years in the future. Are you still writing and researching? And if so. What fuels you?

Constance Sharff So I self-funded this research doer, and, my financial planner is like, you’re going to run out of money. You can’t do this, is it? And I said, no, no, you don’t understand. People like me. We work until either we literally die or an until there’s some sort of, dementia or physical disability that keeps us. I have retirement. I was like, I’m not. I’m not working for retirement. That’s just not of interest to me. And fortunately, writing as long as, you know, I and now even with, you know, voice to text I as long as my mouth works, I don’t even need my fingers to work. I could have arthritis. As long as my brain works, I can. I can keep doing this. My passion really is for the people who don’t have a voice, who are. Ostracized in whatever way, for whatever reason. There’s lots of that. I also. I’d love to work myself out of a job. I don’t think that would happen. Not in my lifetime, but. I really want to continue to advocate that Western style psychotherapy and mental health treatment is not the be all, end all, and it is not appropriate for a lot of cultural groups. I, first of all, the DSM used to be a pamphlet. Now it’s like, you know, a phone book. I mean, it’s tremendously thick.

Bill Sherman And for those of us who remember phone books.

Constance Sharff Right, right. But for that’s to me, that’s over. Pathologizing. Right. All those things are not disorders. These are not all. I mean, a lot of it’s just for coding, right? Because in the United States, health care is a business. It is not. It is not a nonprofit. You know, everybody gets what they need. But I. I embarrassed myself. Once in South Africa, I was invited to speak at a hospital out in a township hospital outside of outside of Cape Town. And, they brought in everybody. I think the I think the janitor was in the room. I mean, everybody came and they asked me to speak on best practices in addiction and trauma treatment. And I was like, great. And, you know, I got up there and I spoke and everybody applauded, and I left, you know, 15 minutes for questions. And the only other. White person in the room. A psychiatrist raised his hand and I think this was a leftovers sometime ago. I think this was a leftover from apartheid that, you know, the doctor from the United States came into to speak. And so they weren’t going to question me. And he said, we don’t have those resources. So we have four psychotherapists for this area, essentially a state. We have four psychotherapists for this area and that area to the north that we also treat none. And I thought I just wasted everybody’s time. Of course, they don’t have all this stuff. But I remembered living in Kenya and I said, you’ll never work with shamans. And then that opened everything up. Because then we could talk about the translation of these, the ideas behind these best practices. Because what is talk therapy? It’s a kind of storytelling. There’s a whole lot of storytelling that goes on in mental health, mental health care. I’m using that term very, very broadly, not a clinical term that we would use in the United States. Very broad. There’s a whole lot of that. And I had seen that as an undergraduate in Kenya. That opened us up to resources that for that community. But it changed the entire focus of my research because I was like. I should have, you know, known going in. This was not the information they needed. I worked at one of the most exclusive, most expensive addiction treatment facilities as their director of research in the world. That’s not going to translate to township, South Africa. I was a fool. I was a fool. But I could acknowledge that I had a misstep. And say, okay, these are the resources I really can bring to you. And that’s actually what they was doing in Ecuador is, I’m talking to the shamans. They ask me to like, you know, do you want to talk to some of us? Of course I do. And he’s like, you want to learn how to make ayahuasca? And he answers, yes. Not that I would use it in anything here in the United States. That’s not appropriate. But the fact that he wanted to teach me. Is about that interaction and that connection, and that’s what I thrive on. So why would I ever want to give that up? You know, I mean, there might come a day that I’m not physically fit enough to go into the wilds of wherever, but I absolutely love these relationships, and I want to keep doing it because it brings. It puts value on. Non-Western ways of viewing the world, and I think that’s incredibly important.

Bill Sherman I also want to underscore something that you said and implied is an idea is not necessarily for every audience. Yes. And the application of ideas may be translated differently. And sometimes that’s a humble lesson to learn in thought leadership. And it can sneak up on you again and again. In all sorts of ways. And the example that you provided so generously of your experience in South Africa is one that I think crystallizes it in many ways. But is one that any time we’re advocating and evangelizing an idea. We have to remain grounded to our audience and say, this needs to be serving them, not me.

Constance Sharff Yes, because. Human beings really are all equal. When I when I go out into some places, I always say, please don’t introduce me as the doctor who’s writing a book. And invariably they introduce me as the doctor who’s writing a book and the power differential. You know, it’s night and day. It’s wrong. I’m a human being and. Where I get so much of my juice, so to speak. Where people I find respect me. It is. I am very clear. That I know a lot about this. So if you want to ask me about complementary and indigenous ways of addressing mental health, particularly related to trauma. Especially on a with a global perspective and not of a particular, you know, ethnic group. I have something to share there. But if you say that I have a light switch that started sticking. I don’t know. And then I bought the wrong light switch because I looked at it and I got the one on, Home Depot, you know, dot com. That looks like the light switch, but on the inside, evidently it has very different cut. And there’s all sorts of different kinds of cuts I’m doing about that. I don’t know. What it means to be a Samburu and live in northern Kenya, except from having lived beside them. For the time that I was there. I don’t know what it means to be a Maori. But when I got adopted into a Maori family and they’re like your iwi now, and I’m like. Because every. I want to engage in that human experience. And I have found that because I don’t want anything from you, I want to be of service who you think I can be, and maybe I cannot, or maybe it’s not in the way that I think I can. You know, so when I was in the when I was in Ecuador, in the Amazon, where I was really of service is I was speaking to the principal of the local school about how to the community that I was staying with owns a lodge, and a lot of people come to see birds, parrots and all sorts of birds that I wasn’t getting up at 5:00 in the morning to see a bird. That’s just not my jam, you know, if you like it, do it. And, I was like, well, why don’t you just ask the people who come to the lodge in their information that you send them out before they come? Why don’t you say we need books from all for all reading levels in English and Spanish? I was like, every single one of us is going to throw our favorite children’s book into our bag and bring it for the children of the Amazon, right? I was saying this a to me, this is a no brainer. But that’s what they need. It doesn’t matter what I need. Maybe. Maybe I get useful research, maybe I don’t. Sometimes I go places and it’s kind of a bust. I was supposed to when I went to Romania. I was supposed to go on this big Jewish tour and see all these things. And I was leaving from Turkey to Romania and at the airport in Istanbul. The guide that I had hired was like, yeah, can’t do it. Everything’s booked prepaid. I’m there a certain amount of time. We ain’t coming back.

Bill Sherman Right?

Constance Sharff I pivoted. It turned it out. It turned out to be so much more interesting what I ended up doing. But the point is, sometimes things just go in the. In the toilet. When I was in Bali. Getting ready. I had gone a few days early and I traveled around and it was fun and Bali’s amazing. And then I was supposed to get down to to work and I had a conference I was speaking at, but they built the whole conference around my research, and then I was going to go into the bush and do some other stuff. Covid hit. I got it, I got a text. Get out, I got I threw my things in a bag. Thank goodness. I kind of stayed packed. You know, things don’t explode around my oh, my things in a bag. We got the last flight out of Bali before they closed the airport. I was in Tibet and it rained so hard, a landslide washed away a Chinese general. Chinese generals don’t get washed away like that’s not a thing. So it doesn’t. I don’t know what my results are going to be. My question is, how can I be of service?

Bill Sherman And I think that’s a fantastic point to underscore here at the end of the conversation. Come from a mindset of service and thought leadership and impact flows from it. Constance, absolutely. Thank you for joining us in this conversation. This has been fantastic.

Constance Sharff I love to talk about this stuff. You know, I’m so I just I’m so grateful to have had the opportunity to go to places I’ve been and meet the people. People have been so generous with me, and I just love to share it with anyone I can. Thank you for having me.

Bill Sherman Thank you. Okay, you’ve made it to the end of the episode, and that means you’re probably someone deeply interested in thought leadership. Want to learn even more? Here are three recommendations. First, check out the back catalog of our podcast episodes. There are a lot of great conversations with people at the top of their game, and thought leadership, as well as just starting out. Second, subscribe to our newsletter that talks about the business of thought leadership. And finally, feel free to reach out to me. My day job is helping people with big insights. Take them to scale through the practice of thought leadership. Maybe you’re looking for strategy, or maybe you want to polish up your ideas or even create new products and offerings. I’d love to chat with you. Thanks for listening.