Why Safe Teams Fail and How to Lead for Real Innovation | Stephanie Chung

Peter Winick

Practical tools for managing the hardest leadership challenge: people not like you.

Today we explore why diverse teams outperform, how the ALLY framework helps leaders manage differences, and why leading people unlike you is the key to innovation and growth.

What happens when every member of your team thinks, works, and communicates differently? Do you see chaos—or do you see opportunity?

In this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, Peter Winick sits down with Stephanie Chung, bestselling author of “Leading People Who Are Not Like You” and a pioneering executive in the aviation industry. Stephanie challenges leaders to move beyond surface-level diversity and embrace the reality that every team is built on differences—in age, gender, culture, abilities, experiences, and thinking styles.

Her thought leadership reframes leadership for today’s workplace. This isn’t about DEI checkboxes. It’s about ROI. Leaders who know how to harness diverse perspectives build stronger, more innovative, and more resilient organizations. Stephanie introduces her ALLY framework—Ask, Listen, Learn, and then act—to help leaders cut through the noise and lead with both head and heart.

She points out that too many leaders default to “safe teams” where everyone looks different but thinks the same. Safe teams don’t innovate. They underperform. Great leadership requires stepping into the challenge of managing complexity and difference. Stephanie’s work equips executives with the tools and mindset to do just that.

Stephanie also highlights the real business case. Diverse teams deliver better outcomes, but only when leaders develop the skill—and courage—to engage differences instead of ignoring them. Her book and keynotes are sparking a movement that’s helping organizations move past fear of mistakes and into a more open, adaptive, and human style of leadership.

If you lead people—and especially if they’re not like you—this conversation will challenge your assumptions and expand your playbook for growth.

Three Key Takeaways

Safe teams underperform — When everyone thinks alike, innovation stalls. Real growth comes from embracing differences, not avoiding them
Leadership is about ROI, not DEI checklists — Diverse teams deliver stronger results, but only if leaders know how to harness and manage those differences.
The ALLY framework matters — Ask, Listen, Learn, and then act. This simple model helps leaders navigate generational, cultural, and communication gaps effectively..

If Stephanie’s episode got you thinking about the challenges—and opportunities—of leading people who aren’t like you, then you’ll want to dive deeper with Lily Zheng’s episode on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Deconstructed. Both conversations cut through the noise and focus on what really drives results: leaders who can embrace differences, move beyond surface-level DEI checklists, and create teams that thrive. Where Stephanie gives you the ALLY framework to navigate everyday leadership dynamics, Lily brings a data-driven lens to diagnose what’s working and what isn’t inside organizations. Listen to both, and you’ll walk away with a sharper playbook for leading diverse teams, boosting innovation, and turning inclusion into real ROI.

Transcript

Peter Winick And welcome, welcome, this is Peter Winick. I’m the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage and you’re joining us on the podcast, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today my guest is Stephanie Chung. She is the author of How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You. And she’ll give you a couple of other highlights from her bio here. She’s a best-selling author, she’s a force of strategic innovation, a beacon of change and a titan in the world of business growth. She was a pioneering woman of color in the aviation sector. She’s an author and a lot of other interesting things. So welcome aboard today, Stephanie.

Stephanie Chung Well, thank you for having me, Peter. I’m very excited for our conversation.

Peter Winick Me too. So give me the short version of, you know, stellar career in aviation to thought leader. Cause it sounds like somebody, you know, made a hard right turn or left turn or whatever. How did we get here?

Stephanie Chung Yeah. Yeah. So great question, by the way, absolutely spent most of my career in aviation. I’ve been in aviation for about 40 years. And, um, and so what started happening is I started to get a lot of inquiry to speak on things that were aviation, you know, not aviation related from other industries. And that’s really how the snowball effect started off. And you know at the end of the day, aviation is such a big industry and it pretty much affects everyone. But we’re a very unique industry because we have zero tolerance for mistakes, right? And so we have a very unique type of industry and what I have found is other industries really can glean a lot from our industry because everything is such high stakes and the differentiator is really the customer experience.

Peter Winick Got it, so how does it get from that to authorship and your take, because you and I had a couple of great calls about leading people who are not like you, because it’s such a well-framed thought, as opposed to DEI’s gotten politicized and all this other craziness, but tell me, how did you get to this as a platform?

Stephanie Chung Absolutely, so when I came from private aviation, there was very few people, like literally honestly, as I was coming through the ranks, there was really no one that looked like me that I came across often. And so from a perspective of when I looked at all the different books that were out there and it was time for me to write a book, I felt like the books, honestly Peter needed to go deeper and wider because the books that I saw out there were really geared more towards men, and specifically white men, trying to share with them, here’s how you lead women or people of color. And though that’s good, right? But I felt like, well, this needs to go much deeper and wider because here I was a leader in an industry that not a lot of people looked like me, thought like me had my same type of background. And I was leading teams of people who were not like me. And so therefore it’s like, well, where’s my book? Like, I want that book, right. And, uh, and there really wasn’t one. And so I decided to create one because with everything going on, and you and I have talked about this, we’ve got six generations at work. So all the intergenerational stuff I think is, uh really having, uh leaders pull their hair out. Right.

Peter Winick Also so stay there so so that’s one not like me I’m a age and there are people above below me sideways whatever from different generation that’s what perspective.

Stephanie Chung That’s right. And then you have, yeah, it touches everything. Then you have women, right? So women are now the majority of the country’s population. So we see things differently, we think differently, we communicate differently. So that is a different dimension. Then you had people in the LGBTQ plus community, or you have people with different abilities, you have physical abilities, or you had neurodiversity, and you have all the ethnic demographics, right. So I just felt like we needed to go much broader and much deeper. And then this is not a DEI book, it’s a leadership book because all of us in leadership are leading people who are not like us and so how do you do it? And my experience is I’ve always led people who were not like me and so here’s the tools that I use to be able to be successful and still have a team that thrives. And so I wrote a book to help other leaders to hopefully give them some tools and kind of lift the burden, if you will, of trying to figure it out on your own.

Peter Winick Part of the gauntlet that you throw down, actually, is it forces people to think, like, wait a minute, if I’m sitting here on a team, everybody looks like me or acts like me or thinks like me, or whatever, whatever, that’s probably not good, because not all the clients look like me and not all of the market looks like, like, and not of the talent looks like. So I think it’s sort of a nice way of saying. Hey, look around the room. If it’s, oh, as my British friends would say, you know, pale, male, and stale, or of one, you know we all graduated MIT and are very technical. Whatever it is, it’s not a traditional definition piece. It’s probably not good for the optimization of the team, for the business outcome, for the goals, for the way we serve clients and the way we grow, right? And that’s still the issue.

Stephanie Chung Yeah, that’s the issue because if you have people who now here’s what’s really interesting. I’ll take it even one step further There are times that you because if people just put it into a let’s just use diversity or gender, right? Those usually people think of it as a male female or a race type of thing and if you do that you’re minimizing the impact because You could have I could actually hire someone who does look like me and we still have a completely different thought process. Right? Because we have, you know, we have different experiences, different backgrounds, et cetera. And so what I never want people to do is to feel, Peter, that, oh, okay, well, it’s gotta be just a race league. No, no, no. You can easily, as a leader, fall into a trap of your whole team may visually look different, but they’re very much like you, right? And that’s just as dangerous because now you have a team that’s functioning too safe, and that’s not, safe teams don’t innovate, right. Safe teams barely perform.

Peter Winick Anyway, if we did a risk averse could be the, like me, we’re all risk avers and take the safe play and all that, and that means somebody else is gonna out-innovate you and out-compete with you. So I wanna sort of segue, pivot now into, okay, so that’s the platform. Who are you serving and what does that look like? Right now it’s the next thing is to, not necessarily find a market for what you’ve got, but figure out. How to serve the market that you’d like to serve. So what are the markets that you’re serving? Because I’m assuming it’s not strictly aviation.

Stephanie Chung No, no, not at all. Not at all.” And so now, you know, going back to your regional question, how did I go from one to, you, know, from an executive to a thought leader? It really was because other industries were asking for me to speak. So now, to your point, this isn’t just an aviation issue, this is an everybody issue, right? We’re, we’re all in this together. And so, so when you think about the client that I serve, it’s really leaders. I mean, my passion is to truly help leaders. I always consider myself to be, you ally in leadership. How do we?

Peter Winick How are you defined? Because let me just pause there for a moment. I think there’s this, I have a definition, a vision in my head of when you say leader, but then when you actually look at the literature that’s out there in leadership, on one end of the continuum it says, well, everybody’s a leader, you lead yourself. And I kind of say, mm, meh. That, right? And then on the other side, it’s obviously C-suite, you’re responsible for a budget, you have people reporting to you, whatever. So I just wanna make sure we’re, because that yeah firm has gotten so. Amorphous when it really shouldn’t be. How are you defining it? Which is

Stephanie Chung Yeah, absolutely. So when I think of leadership, I think if you actually are leading people, right, like there is somebody that you’re responsible for. Now, I don’t disagree that, you know, sometimes you can be a leader and not be leading people. So you’ve got a lot of influence and whatnot. But for the sake of this conversation, I’m really looking at those who are overseeing people and responsible for them and whatnot. The other thing that’s worth mentioning is, and you know this, because you and I have talked about this a couple of times, but Ally is an acronym. So, and it goes further, you know, I don’t think DEI, I think ROI, right? So, Ally stands for ask, listen, learn, you take action. And that’s really what I’m trying to convey in this book is that with all the different dynamics happening in the workforce, that people who were responsible for overseeing teams, they’re going to have to truly understand all the difference dynamics. Because we all talk about having a team that doesn’t look alike, think alike, you now, communicate alike. But what we don’t talk about, Peter, is how hard that is to actually lead, which means your average leader has to level up because it’s easy to lead people who think exactly like you. It’s very, very challenging to lead people who don’t think like you, right? Don’t see the world the way that you see it, et cetera.

Peter Winick If you’re enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a five-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We’re available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps, as well as at thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast.

Peter Winick So square that against, you know, if we were to look at some of the greatest bodies of work, the greatest thought, leadership, and leadership in the last, pick a number, 20 years, 50 years, what happened?

Stephanie Chung Do you think I am?

Peter Winick No, we’re you look a back in a vicarie, right?

Stephanie Chung Is this true? Okay!

Peter Winick Well, if you were to look at some of those things, it really talks about, here’s the attributes of a good leader, be a good communicator, set expectations, assign people tasks that are aligned with their strength. They’re universal. I don’t actually recall in there it says asterisk, but everybody’s different in a little bit of a way, and all that, and other social style and some other stuff. So I think part of what you’re adding to the lexicon is this lens to look through because even just something as setting expectations with people that are not like me, that can be different, right? I’m East Coast, New York, like if I was down South, bless their little hearts and didn’t spend nine minutes asking about their family, their sweet tea, their weekend and grandma’s biscuit recipe, right. Like, right, you’ve been there, done that, right under

Stephanie Chung Audience can’t see I’m cracking up, yeah, a hundred percent.

Peter Winick Now somebody else might, you know, that appreciates a director of lunchtime. I’d say, thank God he didn’t waste my time with all that Monday morning. How was your weekend? Uh, you whatever it’s okay. Here’s what I need from you. Here’s when I expect it and here’s what expected by thanks boss. Yes. Right.

Stephanie Chung So that kind of where you’re going? Well, yes and no, right. So even further, because that’s, that’s one form, right? So you’re talking about communication and I completely agree with you, especially as a person coming from the Northeast, that, you know, sometimes we can just be super direct and maybe that’s not always a good thing, but that’s how we, that how we survive the Northeast. Right. Yeah. But, um, but with that said, there’s communication style. But then there’s so many other styles as well, right? And other things. So really what I’m challenging leaders to really think about is the, not just the obvious, because that’s where we hear a lot of noise on the obvious like race, gender, sexual orientation. Those are the obvious right? But then it does go a little bit deeper and just how do you think about things differently? How do you communicate? And so what I really want leaders to just realize is with, and you know what, by the way, Peter, we’re really dealing with this now with the intergenerational stuff. The reason why leaders are just like, holy cow, is because you may have someone that looks exactly like you, has the same schooling as you, but maybe they’re a different age. And so maybe now their work ethic isn’t like you or how they see work may be different than how you see it. So it is just really, my goal is to just have leaders to realize like, listen, it’s not your right or your bad or you failed or you’re stuck or none of that stuff. It is all of us are in this same place together. And we all have to realize like, okay, there is nobody just like me. And so I’ve got to figure out how to communicate in and get the best out of these folks, right? Though I may not understand, but if I come in with an head and heart issue of truly trying to understand, right. Uh, and that’s why you got to ask, listen, learn, and then take action. Then half the battle’s over. But listen, you and I are probably the same age, Peter, and we kind of grew up a leadership, which was, I don’t need you to understand. I just need you, you do what I said. Right.

Peter Winick There’s stuff at the door. So two things, quick public’s announcement. Far from the South, you might wanna listen to this episode at like 0.75 speed between the two of us. I’m just saying, I’m saying, there goes the fan mail. And then the second is, so what does it, so I love the idea is, let’s dive into the business. So who’s actually paying you to do what? What does that look like? What does an engagement look like?

Stephanie Chung Sure. So most of my, you know, for me, my real number one revenue source is speaking. So I’m a keynote speaker and that’s where I spend a majority of my time. However, as you know some of the things that have happened because of the book, and I’m super grateful for this, is that now all of a sudden people are going, well, hold on, like you should, this book needs to be a movement because again, we’re all dealing with it, right? It’s just very interesting right now to be leader. And so that now we are in that to go, okay, now let’s look at. What would this look like from a corporate perspective and what is it that, you know, we can add value. There’s a lot of trainings out there. But to your point, Peter, where we believe that our niche is very unique is to really say that we’re not talking about, I’m not talking DEI. This is not a DEI book at all. It is a ROI book. The best teams that think differently, communicate differently, like all the research is out there and none of us have to talk about how diverse teams and diverse, you defined a lot different ways. Are just simply better, right? They just outperform traditional teams. But what we don’t talk about is, but that’s hard sometimes to actually lead. And so how do you do that? And that’s where really where I’m focused is there’s no good or bad, which I think, yeah, I think that I think that’s been a little bit of a challenge out there is people feel guilty or feel like all the pressures on them. And I’m not that person I like. So we all have to figure this out.

Peter Winick So my experience is that, you know, keynoting is great. Obviously, you’re good, you’ve got the energy, you’ve gotta be, you light up a room, all that sort of stuff. However, on the other side of that, it does very little to change neighbors that drive business outcomes. And that’s not a ding on you, that’s just, hey, you are flying me in from Mars to land in your company for 45 minutes, do a thing, get some applause, and then I’m out of there, right? Yeah, so for sure. What it does is it stimulates interest It’s a nice intrigue. It says, tell me more. But then ultimately if we, the organizations and the thought leader don’t provide people with something, the tools, a roadmap, something, then they might nod and go, yeah, that speaker, that’s really interesting. And I agree with what she said, but now I’m back in the office. What do I do first? What do we do at 10 o’clock on a Tuesday? And he asked me the answer to that. So to me, I think there’s opportunity from an organizational perspective to Bye. How do we get the organizational embraces, models, methods, language, definitions? Those are important, right? Yeah, 100%. I was thinking about and getting ready for today, even just the framing of, it’s one thing for someone to say to me, Peter, you’re blunt and direct and that’s, you’re annoying, like that’s like, what is wrong with you versus, hey, your style is not like mine. Like, okay, now we neutralize, I’m a jerk and you’re not or vice versa. Hey, it’s different styles. I come from this or I’m of this generation. And when you do X, I receive that as Y, is that your intent or something like that? Like, really valuable. Cause then what we want is to have hundreds of those conversations to be happening almost on a daily basis in the organization, but that’s it’s how to roadmap.

Stephanie Chung Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. And you know, and I love everything that you just said. And even, you know what I would say also, in addition to that, right, is you’ve heard me say this before, so much of this is a head and heart issue, because there’s the techniques right of do this, do that. We don’t communicate the same you’re, you’re straightforward. Maybe I’m from the South since you picked on them. And so now how do we how do we get on the same page, right? That’s one thing. But the other thing that I’m actually wanting to do with the through the ally leadership model is really to go even deeper. Because I want people to realize it is truly a head, do this, do this and a heart, right? And that’s the piece that’s a little bit trickier because if you start with the heart issue of like, listen, I don’t know anything about your body. I don’t know, let’s say I’ve never been to the Northeast, right, for an example. I don’t know what I don ‘t know. And so if I don’s know, and I just think Peter’s a jerk using your words. Then that’s gonna, no matter what steps you tell me to do, it still doesn’t change the fact that I think Peter’s a jerk, right? But if I look at it and go, well, wait a minute, Peter’s not trying to be, you know, overly aggressive or sort of, that’s just kind of where he came from and et cetera, et cetera. Now all of a sudden I realize like, okay, well wait, now it just changes my mindset. So now everything else that you’re gonna tell me or train me on, I can now receive it because I’m no longer looking at oh, well, Peter’s this, I’m just kind of like, oh, okay, wait, that’s just how it functions in the Northeast, assuming I’ve ever been there, right? So it really is a head and heart issue. And here’s why this is important, is when people come from, if they come from that perspective, a lot of times what happens is a lot of leaders, especially again, you and I are around the same age, some leaders are just so nervous to make a mistake, because unfortunately, if they’ve made a hiccup or made a mistake. People just socially slaughter them out there and so therefore they are like scared straight but just don’t say anything in fear of saying the wrong thing. What I want people to realize is just assume on the front end you’re going to say the wrong things. So apologize in advance.

Peter Winick It’s not if it’s when it’s and even it could be, you know, how many times this week did I do that? Like you do a self report date and an audit, cause it’s not like the one time you said the one horrible thing and the, you, um, uh, you know, the story that stands out. It’s, it’s almost the reverse of a microaggression. What nuance things that you did that you have done better as a leader. This has been, um. Very cool. Very awesome. I appreciate it.

Stephanie Chung I always love seeing you, Peter. It’s always a good time.

Peter Winick Good stuff. I appreciate the story and the candor and the energy. Thank you so much, Stephanie.

Stephanie Chung Thank you for having me. Bye bye now.

Peter Winick To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at thoughtleadershipleverage.com. To reach me directly, feel free to email me at peter at thoughtleadershipleverage.com, and please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.