Getting a conference audience to stand up and pay attention. An interview with Kraig…
Developing new skills to deliver presentations, coaching, and consulting, virtually.
An interview with James Kerr and Nadia Bilchik that originally aired on December 1st, 2021, as part of Leveraging Thought Leadership Live on LinkedIn.
How many new skills did you learn during the pandemic?
The lack of face-to-face meetings required everyone to adapt, and for many, that included the ability to build connections and community online.
To discuss the skills and adaptations we all needed to update our lives to fit the new modality, I’ve invited two good friends to join me in a chat.
Nadia Bilchik is the President of Greater Impact Communications. She’s a speaker, trainer, and author of Own Your Network: Expert Networking In Person & Online.
James Kerr is the founder of Indispensable Consulting. He’s also a speaker, as well as a leadership coach and the author of Indispensable: Build and Lead A Company Customers Can’t Live Without.
First, we look at the way presentations and communication skills training have changed in the wake of the first Covid outbreak. Nadia explains ways that our language has become more intentional due to the lack of ability to read body language in the virtual world. She gives advice on connecting with your audience on camera, and describes changes that will make you stand out and make your message clear.
James discusses time constraints, and how we (and our audience) have begun to think about and value time differently. We no longer spend days traveling in order to accomplish a two-hour task. The ability to give a presentation in various time zones within a single day is a dramatic shift in itself, but it has also changed our understanding of real human interaction. We examine how to use online chit-chat and build toward deep “getting to know you moments” that build strong and memorable relationships.
We wrap up our conversation by looking at the concept of “Zoom Fatigue.” Nadia shares tips for placement of your camera, while James discusses how to interact with clients who prefer to leave their cameras off.
The world has changed irrevocably, and the best thought leaders know how to keep up, adapt, and even excel in our new, digital-focused age.
Three Key Takeaways:
- When delivering thought leadership online ensure your camera is parallel to your eyes and you look directly into it while speaking. This gives the same effect as looking into someone’s eyes while speaking in person.
- While we have had to reengineer the way we do things – the what is still the same.
- It is important to get to know your clients on a deep personal level when you are only able to connect with them online. Ask personal questions about family and hobbies to help develop that relationship.
If you need a strategy to bring your thought leadership to market, Thought Leadership Leverage can assist you! Contact us for more information. In addition, we can help you implement marketing, research, and sales. Let us help you so you can devote yourself to what you do best.
Peter Winick And welcome. This is Peter Winick. I’m the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage, and you’re joining us on Leveraging Thought Leadership, the LinkedIn live edition. So here we are. Let me introduce to you my two guests and then we’ll dive right in.
Peter Winick So, two guests today. So my first guest is an old friend, Nadia Bilchik, 90. And I’ve known each other, I think about 15 years. She’s the president of Greater Impact Communication. She’s anchored and hosted a bunch of feature programs on CNN. She’s an author. She’s a speaker. She’s a presenter.
Peter Winick And then my other guest is Jim Kerr, who’s a superb presenter. He’s written multiple books, is a consultant, is an advisor. He’s a coach. And instead of spending half the show telling you how great these two are, let’s just dive in.
Peter Winick So welcome to all of you. Welcome, Jim. And you two know each other, so that should give us a little help on the chemistry side.
Nadia Bilchik Yes, I was just saying how wonderful it is. Instead of having coffee at Starbucks, here we are on LinkedIn live.
Peter Winick Yeah, exactly. So here we are. We’re, I don’t know, 18 months or whatever into this. And all of our businesses, all of our world have changed. So what I want to start with today and we were chatting about this a little bit earlier is, you know, what’s the same and what’s different. Right. So we’re still serving clients. We’re still delivering value based on our domain expertise, but the formats and the modalities. So let me start with you nodding because on the presentation and communication side, it might be more obvious on your world. So maybe start with some of your traditional work presentation skills training, communication training, etc., all in person coming from your on air skills. And what does that look like now?
Nadia Bilchik So we’ve all had to navigate this virtual world. And I think the biggest thing that we realize is we have to be so much more intentional. So if Jim and Mary and Peter was sitting together having a conversation in person, it would be so organic we could read body language. And over the last 18 months, we’ve had to do this in a very fabricated, very artificial environment. So things like if I was looking at you and Jim in person, I’d be looking into your eyes, which would be lovely because you’re both so lovely. But now I’m having to do it through my webcam. And I want to look at Peter and I want to look at Jim. The way that I’m doing it is looking at the middle of my eye, parallel into my camera, so that it looks that I can look like I’m looking at you. That’s not natural. So we have to learn so much technique about how to connect with another person in a way that is not organic. And what I’ve been doing, Jim, over the last 18 months is helping people really engage and connect and have conversations in a way that is much, much more intentional than ever before. So now we went from doing it virtually to doing it in a hybrid world, and that means acquiring new skills and new techniques.
Peter Winick Yeah. So stay with that new skills piece because I think that applies to all of us. So if you think about a keynote speaker. Pre-COVID. They knew how to work the room. They knew how to create an environment through music and lighting and everything was stage two, the entrance and the closing and all that sort of stuff. And a lot of that is about being big and somewhat over the top and finding a couple of people in the audience to connect with and all that. And if you move to this world and use those skills, you look like a hyper caffeinated infomercial seller.
Nadia Bilchik So you have to become very technically proficient. Now, my friend Jim, who is indispensable for me, was much more technically proficient before I was. But as speakers, we’ve had to navigate our virtual platforms masterfully, and we’ve had to learn to use all sides. But a tip that I give everybody is you’ve got these big slides on your screen, but don’t put baby in the corner. So who’s baby? Your baby and Jim’s baby. So sometimes when you’re sharing slides go up, the slide shows to the group connecting back with your audience. So I spent my whole career in front of a television camera now having to do it via webcam. We’re having to acquire new skills and use it in. Pete. When you speak to Jim shortly and I’m excited to hear from him, Jim is not going to do a large performance because this close to the camera. So your whole voice modulation and the way you talk is totally different than if you were commanding in a large space.
Peter Winick Yeah, exactly. So, Jim, I mean, you do some keynotes in such as well, but most of your work is more on the consulting and coaching side. So how has it changed your world the last 18 months?
Jim Kerr Well, you know, as Nadia mentioned, the lack of face to face is required, new skills. And it took a bit of effort to really be able to get the coaching and the consulting work to work in a virtual way. Because of very much my work face to face, I’m up in front of a whiteboard capturing notes, I’m facilitating conversations and so on. So to be able to do that in the virtual world was a bit of a trick. But I will say this, you know, again, we’re 18 months into this already, but the clients that I work with have all been able to transition well. They’re very comfortable with the medium and were able to kind of do the same stuff that we used to do in person through this sort of, you know, virtual world. The good news for somebody like me who spent 30 years in a plane with the clients and so on, living in hotel rooms much of the time, I’m wondering if I’m going to ever have to go back to that kind of think that we’ve proven that we don’t need quite as much of that kind of interaction where we can do the work the way we’ve been doing it. The last.
Peter Winick One. I think that’s a huge issue, Jim, because, you know, all of our work initially was always, always, always face to face. And, you know, when I think about why, I’m not really sure why, really, it’s just the way it was done. Right. And we were pretty nervous early on around. Will we be able to deliver the value? Will we be able to deliver the goods to the clients if we’re not in a room? Because I’m also one that thought I got all my energy from the smell of a whiteboard market ready to get up there and genius happens and magic happens and all that. And we had to re-engineer the way that we do the things and such. But the what is still the same, right? The models, the methodologies, the framework, the outcomes are the same. We had a fiddle with some technology and all that sort of stuff. You know, I think the pieces that we miss are the connection, right? It’s great to meet a client or a friend or colleague for the first time and break bread or have a glass of wine or three or whatever. But I think the bar is now higher when we get back to normal, whatever that may be ready to say, hey, let’s have an adult conversation. We could do this in person. Is it really necessary? And by the way, if we’re going to do it that way, the pricing is going to be different because we can deliver it remotely. And I think this for keynotes and consultants and stuff, the underbelly here is a little bit of yeah, we needed to charge what we needed to charge for the work that we were doing. And even if we had all the hacks, the executive club and all this other stuff at the airport, there’s a lot of dead time for me to even go to Atlanta, which is a couple hour flight from New York to do a two hour meeting. It’s pretty much two days of my life. Right.
Jim Kerr And that’s Tom. You know, what one misses out on is if you came to the Atlanta meeting, we would chat. Before your presentation. We’d have dinner the night before you get to know people. So, yes, it was much more time consuming. But what I say now to people is you have got to be very skilled at creating those moments of chit chat and those moments of deep getting to know you beyond the square on the screen. And I just see that Mark Angelos has joined us, who is a dear friend of mine. And Mark and I have actually never, ever met in person, but we have connected virtually. And Mark, thank you for your comments. Mark is in marketing and we hope I know how many kids he has. I know his background. I know what his challenges are. I know what’s working out well for him. So it’s the skills to have that conversation where I say to my client that I had to make it this morning. Jenny, how are your kids doing? And I know the ages of her children and have a real conversation. And then to be able to say, I like this question. What’s your biggest challenge at the moment? And I’m curious to know if I ask people, Jim or Nadia, what’s your biggest challenge? You’ll be as personal, professional, but you got to be skilled at doing that. You can’t just get onto a virtual meeting, start the meeting and the meeting. I’ve spent a lot of time asking people and I’ve collated a lot of data on what people’s challenges are. And what it comes down to is I miss the human connection of disengaged. They don’t have the camera on. So something as simple as pizza. How did you get your name? I’ve never actually seen you the I don’t know how you got your name. But asking people that in the team, meeting something that helps us build a bond, something that helps us go beyond just the business.
Peter Winick So stay there for a minute. So your first book and I’m drawing a blank on the name.
Nadia Bilchik Of what’s on that movie. Own your network.
Peter Winick Own your network. Right. So one of your earliest book or the earliest one that I can recall was on networking, and that was written in a physical world. And a lot of it was sort of the strategies and tactics on how to be authentic and transparent in a physical environment, not just, you know, selling life insurance and all that. And I think, you know, as you’re talking, I’m thinking some of the best moments of a meeting in person used to happen five, 10 minutes before as people are congregating. And then there’s the meeting like, hey, Jim, let’s walk down the hall together. You made that. Good point. Let’s go grab a cup of coffee. And the technology, you know, leans towards efficiency and meeting starts at end and ends. It starts and it ends and that’s it. And there’s none of that time. I think from a networking perspective, we have to create and schedule those opportunities to just reach out and say, Hey, Nadia, we met and you and I do this. Nadia Right. So we’ve been talking about let’s just get this to a catapult for ten minute agenda.
Nadia Bilchik I don’t know if it’s easy for us because we are natural connectors. Now, you, Peter, and I, both fast paced and outspoken. Jim tends to be as an individual. He’s very articulate, but he will be an observer first. So I say to my clients, Am I right about that? Jim?
Jim Kerr Probably. I probably wouldn’t or would not have characterized myself that way, naturally, but I think it’s probably true. You know, the biggest thing for me is to make sure that when I’m interacting with someone in this virtual world, that it that it matters, that I’m bringing something to the table that is going to help them, you know, get better at what they do on the. That’s my job as an advisor. Whether I’m coaching or consulting, it’s all about trying to make somebody better. So yeah, I mean, part of it is being able to listen better. I sort of hop on my earlier thoughts that one of the good things about all of this is I do think it’s made us more patient. It’s made us listen a little bit better. It’s helped people. Recognize that there is these challenges that we are all up against, that we’re all in it together, and that we’re going to work hard together to overcome them using this medium as a way to connect. So. And I think that’s something to sort of come out of this, I think is something that will gain from it when it’s finally behind us.
Peter Winick Yeah.
Nadia Bilchik And my question is, are we good enough? Do we have a good enough skill set and people who can actually have this? So do we give people, team leaders, a whole lot of things they can do with the teams that people feel that they are more important, that they are valued, that they are seen, and not just as a worker. So the question I’ve been asking need to ask people and this is a good one to get to funding is when you look at your teenage self, what is your biggest challenge as a teenager? What does something that defined you? What is your life like? And that allows and brings up interesting discussion that helps us go beyond just what we see. So my whole goal in this virtual reality is to help people build these bonds. That would happen naturally, but to do it virtually. And Jim, the nature of your work, you’re already asking people so many questions as you get to know that that’s the nature of your work. My work is helping team leaders and helping individuals collaborate, lead and engage both vocally and in the hybrid world and concrete skills. Because you don’t wake up to say, okay, how am I going to make each person in my team feel valued? I’ve just done a huge rollout for a big company on working with people who only have virtual teams and simple things like during Halloween, asking people what the best costume they’ve ever had is or what would they like to place on it. I mean, it’s a question, but what it does is it makes people laugh and then to delegate that to your team. So you say, I don’t need to be in charge of the gate every time. Maybe in my team I put Jim and Pete in charge of that. So people come up with different things. And although these things may seem a little frivolous, what they doing is helping us get to know you. And that’s the biggest thing that is lacking in a virtual world is we don’t so many people are working with teams that they’ve never met. They onboarding people. And it’s not a matter of saying, hello, let’s just get to know you. You need to have the skills and techniques and tools to get beyond so that people feel they are important.
Peter Winick Yeah.
Jim Kerr One of the biggest concerns that I have right now with clients is the lack of coaching. And Peter, you kind of hopped on that earlier when you said a lot of things happened after the meeting and it’s sort of walking down the corridor after a short hop and hopping in an office somewhere and having a sort of a sidebar conversation about what just happened and so on. And I know I spent a fair amount of time with that in the past and. It’s a way to connect what we’re saying here, but it’s also a way to help develop people. And what I’m concerned about is I think we’ve lost that ability for people to mentor. Folks in this virtual world because it’s hard to go back afterwards and have that conversation, have that sidebar conversation that we used to be able to do in person very easily.
Peter Winick So I’ve chunk that into.
Jim Kerr Rocket to the next meeting.
Peter Winick Yeah.
Peter Winick If you’re enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave us a review and share it with your friends. We’re available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps as well as at ThoughtLeadershipLeverage.com forward slash podcasts.
Peter Winick So I’ve chunked that into sort of three buckets, Jim. There’s content that needs to be delivered. Theoretically, the purpose of the meeting, the agenda, and I think we’re pretty good at delivering the content digitally, remotely, whatever. Here’s the agenda, Jim. You weigh in, nodding, let’s have a conversation, whatever. But the missing pieces are the connection. So we might be on five different zooms together a week, but we might not feel connected. Right. And then the going deeper, then the connection is the community. And I think those things were to some degree organic or byproducts or, you know, sort of unintended outcomes of the physicality of being in a same place. And we need to figure out how to be deliberate about that. So I think, yeah.
Nadia Bilchik Intentional communication. I look at the client this morning and next the workshop we’re delivering in February, which is intentional communication in a hybrid world. Engaging, leading, collaborating.
Peter Winick Yep.
Nadia Bilchik Because a year ago it was maximizing your virtual presence and I was spending lots of time telling people, have you liked in front of you? Not a window behind you so that you look like a cardboard cutout through in the witness protection program? Look into the camera. It’s actually amazing, though, that even 18 months later, I still work with teams who don’t realize the importance of looking into a camera while they are talking. That is synonymous with looking at you. They still look down at the person who’s speaking. They haven’t navigated how to raise the computer. All of those little things that you would expect by now people have done.
Peter Winick So let me ask you this, Nadia, because this is more in your wheelhouse, but feel free to weigh in, Jim. You know, everybody’s talking about zoom fatigue, right? So every zoom that I do, unless there’s a technical or something and almost every call I do today is zoom, the camera’s on. Right. And I find it wonderful. Right. There’s connection. There’s whatever. When I’m on a phone call with someone now, I always feel like, you know, I’m watching a black and white movie or the sounds like it’s missing an element, anything. But there are organizations that are now putting in new protocols or norms or whatever. It’s, Oh, this is a camera optional meeting. And when I hear that, I mean, oh, that means I’ve given you permission to not pay attention to check your emails, to be mildly disengaged, to have this on as sort of the Christmas music and Starbucks in the background. So I’m not saying Zoom fatigue is not real. But I think some of the way that we’re processing that, I mean, if the fatigue is why I’m not used to paying attention, that’s one problem. So what do you what are you guys seeing there? Nadia, you want to jump in on that first, see what the norms are and to the zoom fatigue.
Nadia Bilchik So my thought always is, where possible to have your camera on. But I do understand that companies will say if it’s a quick meeting, we can do it because people are getting exhausted. But again, set the guidelines if everyone’s expected to be on camera, unless you have a good reason not to say, unfortunately, I can’t today. I’m also very careful about how I phrase that when I do sessions I say preferably with your camera on because I’d rather you attend than don’t attend because you were self-conscious or there was an issue with that was something going on. So I’m very honoring. I also tell leaders not to chastise people if they don’t have the cameras on. So, for example, guys, we’re really hoping that the protocol have your cameras on. But if somebody repeatedly doesn’t have the camera on, I would ask why. But you don’t want to make people feel like they naughty school children if they don’t. And yes, make more energy if you are doing a cool say to people, guys, I know we’re not on camera, we’re doing the school, but please, I need your full attention. Can you keeping this brief? I am going to be calling on you because we know that people’s tendency to multitask if they’re not on camera is greater. And if all of our roles we’re trying to drive engagement and participation and all that is skillfully as we can.
Peter Winick And what would you say, Jim? We’ll get to.
Jim Kerr That. Well, I guess I’m going to take the other side on it. I’ve got a client right now that I work with regularly on a daily basis that really doesn’t want people on camera. They don’t care about it. They don’t issue cameras. They kind of feel like it doesn’t really. Or as long as we can share content. So we’ll have. 20 people on a phone call and there’ll be a presentation being made and people are watching the screen and looking at the content on the screen. No one’s seen each other. And I agree with you. I think there is you know, people can drift off. They can, in fact, pad the shop and they can call on somebody. Hey, Bill, what do you think of this? And Bill’s not there, you know, if there shows up in the list of the ten years. But he’s physically not there. And I was sorry. I was, you know. Uh huh. So there’s definitely something lost with that approach to it. But so it was in regard to this climate, you know, we’re getting the work done.
Peter Winick Yeah.
Jim Kerr It’s not optimal. But it’s the way it is. And, you know, think people.
Peter Winick And their meetings might have been awful meetings before where it was culturally acceptable to have a device open or, you know. I think it depends on what was the standard protocol level of respect at a traditional meeting. There were meetings of 40 people around and 37 of them were going, I don’t know why I’m here.
Jim Kerr But yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think what they’ve been applying for a very long time and certainly the quality of the meeting differs from meeting to meeting. But yeah, you know, we’ve lost something for sure with this and I watch people at night in and the great advice and training that she provides as the really important stuff. And I in fact, I’ve tried to incorporate some of that with my conversations in the spiritual world and so on. So there’s, there’s something to be said for the value of taking that extra steps to make it, you know, as good as it possibly can be and to connect as well as we possibly can given the situation on.
Peter Winick Yeah.
Nadia Bilchik One of my best stories is, you know, I had a clients top eight all posts and Fortune 500 company and I get a note from her assistant. This will be no cameras. This will be no cameras. So I wake up very early one morning, stumble into my office, not looking like I am now, no makeup, hair, whatever, literally in my pajama tops. And I switch on that zoom and there she is, fully made up perfect, like looking amazing with the camera on. And it was one of those moments of going, do I switch my camera on? And, you know, so much of what I teach is how long does it take to make a first impression? And everything you do and say communicate and are we using everything? The camcorder is the best version of ourselves. And there I am in my pajama talk face crush. And I guess that moment that I put my camera on and anyway, we sort of laughed about it afterwards. But it was one of those moments that I look, this is going to be, you know, and so much of what I teach is virtual presence. And there I am. But it was that moment of making a decision of the camera. On if she’s got a camera on and she’s with potential clients. So there’s some good stories of what’s happened and what hasn’t happened in the moments that have gone wrong in this virtual world. But one thing is. Again, you said that the level of just transparency and vulnerability and being okay if the dog barks, you know, I had a moment, my dog doesn’t walk through this and then I like it’s okay. And we’ve become so much more accepting and not mindful of each other. Somebody asked me one of my sessions, you know what? If my naked partner walks past behind me, that’s a lot of people’s attention. You know, I think we’ve learned to laugh. We’ve learned to accept the imperfection. I recommend things like having a background that makes sense and all of these things in a perfect world. But sometimes I’ve had people who are having to do their calls in their bed from because that’s the only place. So at least make your bed.
Peter Winick Right. So I think I think that authenticity, authenticity, the transparency, the vulnerability at first was forced on us and now we’re embracing it. Right. Because you never would have walked into a meeting in an office building in downtown Atlanta in your pajama top. Right. That would be like, wow. But now, even though that, you know, you might have broken some unspoken code, it’s like, ha ha, things happen. Oh, it’s an early morning call. She didn’t get the email, whatever, whatever. But I think we’re all sort of now peeking inside of each other’s spaces. And, you know, like you said, you wouldn’t even bring your dog to your office unless you worked for Google or something like that. Right. But we’re seeing a bit of each other that we didn’t see before. And I think it’s a good thing, you know, and I think it’s a you know, Jim and I talk about, you know, obviously your CD collection is impressive and you’re a music aficionado. And I may not have known that if we were living in a different place. And that’s led to, you know, you posting Bruce Springsteen quotes and I’ll talk about them. Right.
Nadia Bilchik But if I was meeting Jim, I could ask him about that CD collection and we could sation about it. Or I’d say, you know, I notice you’re doing X and the ability to do that. We told people I knew Dale Carnegie in the sixties, wrote about how to win friends and influence people, and he said, People talk about themselves of bowls and people talk about other people and gossips and people talk about you are brilliant conversationalists, you know, foundational things of showing genuine interest in the other. Whether you’re in a personal online, the difference is you have to be and to use that word again, more intentional.
Peter Winick Yeah. No, I think the intentional piece is cool. Right. As we start to wrap, maybe if I could, I can put each of you on the spot for a moment or two to think about, not in a fluffy kind of way, but what are your hopes and aspirations for 2022 in a pragmatic way? So we’re not. World peace would be lovely. Like, I’d be nice, but that’s not what. What are you what are you thinking about for 2022? Jim is around the corner shop month away.
Jim Kerr Yeah. You know, it’s. I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about that. In fact, I think we all kind of do as we get ready for the next year and so on. You know, for me, I’m in the middle of writing book number seven, so I’m hoping to get that finished and find a publisher for it. So that’s kind of one of the goals that I want to accomplish, you know, next year. I also want to build out some, some different kinds of strategic relationships with consulting firms, because I feel like I’m at a point now in my career where I want to help to develop sort of the next generation of consulting. And I feel like I continue to apply it, you know, forging better relationships with bigger firms that have those younger folks that are already trying out and need some assistance. So I’m kind of looking at a couple of those, those kind of ideas for next year. How about you what they’re doing for next year, Peter?
Peter Winick So the boomerang, the question. So I think, you know, next year this year, we. Well, let me put it this way. I’m going to do more of what we did this year in a good way. I think we’re going to continue to move forward. We launched a new practice every couple of year, working with large organizations as opposed to just the independent author, speakers and thought leaders. So we will we do that. We will always do that. We love doing that. But we found different places that value what we do at different levels, and that’s really exciting. We pick up a handful of marquee clients. I’d like to do a bit more travel. I don’t want to go back to 140,000 miles a year. I’ve come to the realization that if I never achieve executive platinum again, they probably wouldn’t have mentioned that in my eulogy and it wouldn’t have been on my tombstone, and I’ll just have to pay for upgrades moving forward. But that’s okay. So yeah, that’s and then maybe actually getting the opportunity to meet some folks that I’ve developed great relationships in, in our community and others over the last 18 months. Jim, you and I are probably live, what, an hour and a half, 2 hours from each other? Lunch or dinner would be nice to be there. And Nadia, what about you? What’s looking right.
Nadia Bilchik First of all, for anybody who happens to be watching this, if you are an aspirational thought leader in an organization, Peter Winick offers fantastic advice and guidance. And if you haven’t read Indispensable, that is the one book of Jim’s that I have read. And it is remarkable strategy and it’s about making your product or your business indispensable. So you’ve got great advice from fantastic consultants who usually charge a lot of money. So thank you both this morning. So for me, 2022, I do have a full book. It is rental of fi and it’s about ramping up your business and amplifying in 2022. I started it with David Sarno in March of 2020. We are finally getting there and of course the interviews that I’ve been doing around that have been remarkable and things have changed since 2020, so get that out would be fantastic. I am praying that I will get to South Africa in April. It is so depressing what has happened with Omicron because it means that people going to South Africa in December, many of my family among them can’t. So let’s hope that it is much less dangerous than is being perceived and that people learn to live with it in a way that is not crippling the economies of these countries. Because for South Africa right now, the lack of travel and the shutdown is worse for the country in so many ways than the virus. So let’s pray that if you and I and Jim and Peter, we having this discussion this time next year, let’s hope things have revived. And. Just continuing connecting. For me the getting together the weight jumped and I met in this wonderful mastermind group of people who genuinely give us as well as getters. I think that’s being part of.
Peter Winick Yes.
Nadia Bilchik Thank you both.
Peter Winick Well, thank you. And I want to thank you both for your for your time. This was a lot of fun. And I appreciate. Appreciate you both very much. So thank thanks for joining us and spending the time.
Nadia Bilchik And drinks in New York City.
Peter Winick Just text me any time.
Jim Kerr Count me in
Peter Winick To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our Web site at ThoughtLeadershipLeverage.com to reach me directly. Feel free to email me at Peter at ThoughtLeadershipLeverage.com and please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.