Communication and the Relationship to Taking Ideas to Scale An interview with Richard Newman about…
Building a vocal brand army in conventional and unconventional social spaces.
An interview Kerry-Ann Stimpson about making an impact on brand marketing with the aid of employees.
Modern marketing means using popular social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter.
But how can organizations make sure such marketing is effective, when it’s hard to reach or measure the results?
Behind the scenes of social media are a million private messages, e-mails, and other chatter that has as much effect on a brand as public announcements. How can that be measured, harnessed, and addressed?
To help us navigate the “Dark Social” parts of the net, we’ve invited Kerry-Ann Stimpson, Chief Marketing Officer at The JMMB Group, an integrated financial service provider who values and promotes heart-to-heart connections and authentic, caring relationships through online media. Kerry-Ann is also the host of The Internal Marketing Podcast, where she
gives tips and insights about ways companies can supercharge their brand by focusing on their employees.
First, we define the idea of the “Dark Social” connection, and the important role it plays in the way brands are viewed. Kerry-Ann shares ways to educate your employees so they can play important roles in building the company’s brand – along with their own! This is best accomplished by giving employees the freedom and trust to use their voices, and follow their passions.
Kerry-Ann further gives insights about the ways she’s been helping employees step out of the shadow of their company’s brand, and share their personal experiences. An employee’s personal experiences have great value to a company’s reputation, helping organizations create communities that allow budding brand ambassadors to connect, learn, and inspire each other.
Three Key Takeaways:
- Thought leaders should embrace the idea of “dark social” connections, and build trustworthy allies to carry the conversation in those places.
- A customer will never be more excited about your brand than your employees. Thought leadership helps employees get charged up and eager to share those ideas.
- You may never have the resources to accomplish all of your marketing goals, but if you create an army of advocates, they’ll help take your ideas further than any marketing budget ever could.
Join the Organizational Thought Leadership Newsletter to learn more about expanding thought leadership within your organization! This monthly newsletter is full of practical information, advice, and ideas to help you reach your organization’s thought leadership goals.
Bill Sherman Thought leadership thrives in the world of dark social. And no matter how active your organization might be, your target audiences will always be talking about ideas. And that’s true whether your employees are around or not. Your audiences will be talking about ideas through private emails, private chats and other interactions that we just can’t see. So how do we move past worry and learn to love dark social? I’ve invited Kerry-Ann Stimpson, chief marketing officer of JMMB Group and the host of the internal marketing podcast to join me for this conversation. Today we talk about dark social. We talk about how an organization’s employees become ambassadors for the brand and its ideas. And we talk about setting up individuals within the organization for their own thought leadership.
Bill Sherman I’m Bill Sherman and you’re listening to Leveraging Thought Leadership. Ready? Let’s begin. Welcome to the show, Kerry.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Thanks, Bill. I’m so very happy and excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
Bill Sherman So, you and I started a conversation a while ago around “dark social” and how it’s impacting marketing, brand building and thought leadership. And I’d love to continue that conversation here today. But let’s start with a little bit of a level set. What is dark social, and what are we talking about?
Kerry Ann Stimpson That’s a great question, because I don’t think everybody’s quite clear about what it is. And I just want to caution everybody, when we say “dark,” you know, people start to get a little scary. No, it’s not quite that. But dark social. So first of all, it’s social. And we say social. We mean social media. We’re social media channels, but we’re all familiar with the popular social media channels, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, what have you. Now, Dark Social is a term that’s typically used by marketers, but especially search engine optimization folks, right? Because ultimately what they’re trying to determine is, how are we getting people to our website? Are people learning about us and coming to us to find out or request a demo, what have you? And the fact that Dark Social was even created came out of the fact that you recognized that people were coming to our website and asking for information and asking for demos via channels that we weren’t really aware of or certainly we can’t control. Right? So again, we know the typical social media channels: LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, those are channels that we can track, we can track hashtags, we can track keywords, etc., and we can know usually when people mention our brands on those channels. But let’s take and think about other social channels, email, WhatsApp, instant messaging, direct messaging. In those channels, people are still interacting. There’s still a lot of socialization going on, but it’s very difficult, if not impossible, to track what’s going on in those email conversations and so on. But yet they’re so very important because a lot of referrals are happening and out of those conversations people are reaching out. So dark social really those social channels that people are communicating through and sharing information through that we’re not able to track and put our finger on that. So it really is. Yeah.
Bill Sherman And this becomes important not only from an attribution sense of where did that lead come from, but also in a brand building sense. How were people learning about us? How do they perceive us or our organization? And then from a thought leadership perspective, how do ideas spread? Right, because we can look at an idea and say, oh, this rippled through these websites or on these posts on LinkedIn. But we have to admit and acknowledge that we only see the tip of the iceberg around conversations.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Absolutely. We really only see the tip of the iceberg. There’s so much going on that we absolutely don’t see. And that’s what the dark social concept is meant to address.
Bill Sherman And with that, I mean, our conversation here is an example, right? So it began on a LinkedIn post that you made specifically about dark social and how you have to think about an organization’s employees and how they’re showing up on social. And we got into a conversation, we took that offline and now we’re coming back online, right? Yeah. And so in between, what you could see on that post and now there was an offline conversation. So let’s explore a little bit about something that I know you’re passionate about, which is that internal communications with employees, how do you help make sure and how do you educate people about the importance of dark social within the organization?
Kerry Ann Stimpson So from my perspective, I think first of all, we always have to start from a place of understanding what’s in it for me. Right. I always subscribe to the belief that people ultimately work for themselves. They don’t really work for the company. And so whenever it is, you want to educate them or onboard them into something new. You have to start from the place of not only how is this benefiting the company or impacting the company, but is it impacting you? And as co-owners of the brand or ambassadors of the brand, we always want to be super sensitive to the fact that we need to always be in tune to what’s happening in terms of the conversations happening about the brand. What are people saying? I’m hearing about us. And that’s really where it starts from an internal communication perspective. It’s saying, Look, there are these conversations happening in these channels that we can’t control. We recognize that you actually exist in those channels because you’ve got your own networks going on. How do we address the fact that we need to be partnering more as again, cool ambassadors of the brand and owners of your own personal brand? How can we be partnering to leverage what is really an awesome opportunity not only to build a company brand, but also to build your personal brand as well through these channels that are clearly very active, very dynamic and flourishing as we speak.
Bill Sherman And so one of the things that I love is that alignment of an individual as an employee building their brand also reinforces the brand of the organization. And the more that you have stars within the organization, the more people say, Oh, that’s an organization that’s going places and they’ve got their stuff together if they can attract and retain that quality of people.
Kerry Ann Stimpson That’s right. Absolutely. And you know, the fact, too, that the company is, I would say, quote unquote, allowing that and I use the word allowing loosely because we recognize that it’s still an ongoing conversation. There are a lot of companies that are still more so content with kind of clamping down and wanting to control the voices of their employees in the social space and not really permitting them and allowing them to flourish and build their own personal brand. So the fact that you see an organization with employees who are out there having the conversations, building their brands, producing valuable content, and people are saying, hey, that company is onto something. In much the same way, because they’re catching the vision that it’s a win win. It’s not just about spitting out company content, but it’s about trust and working with and partnering with employees, recognizing that, hey, they’re going to be out there talking in their social channels anyway. Why not make it a partnership? Why not make it work for everyone?
Bill Sherman Well, and whether it’s happening on publicly seen social or friend text and says, hey, I’m thinking of a financial services company. What do you think of Jim and B, you work for them.
Kerry Ann Stimpson They’re not going to.
Bill Sherman Happen by a text message and that answer is going to impact the brand.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Just like that? Just like that.
Bill Sherman So let’s talk about I think one of the things you have to do is accept as a marketer, there are conversations that you cannot control about your brand. Right. And that’s a hard thing to accept. So you sit in a CMO seat on that. How do you think about that in terms of your organization?
Kerry Ann Stimpson So the first response is that I think that it’s potentially scary because it’s always great to want to be in control again, especially coming from a place of managing the official company accounts. You’re putting out the branded messages that you sit and work so hard to create and then recognizing that there is a whole other world of conversations going on again in channels that you can, let alone you can’t even control it. You can’t even see it, so you don’t even know what’s happening. It can be potentially scary, but at the same time I also see it as a place of potential great opportunity, quite frankly, because when you think about again how the company brand is seen and perceived, you know, we’re all about talking about ourselves. Right. And I think people expect the company message to be positive. But what we recognize is that trust of institutions is at an all time low. These days, people tend to trust a more sold the word or the recommendation or referral of a friend or family member or colleague, more so than they would trust the company marketing message. And so there is the opportunity. It’s not about, well, I can’t control it, so I’m just going to take to the bottle on this one. No, it’s recognizing here’s a great opportunity. What can we do to if we can’t control the conversation, what can we do to impact the conversation as best we can? And that’s where I think is a great place to start as a marketer.
Bill Sherman So let’s stay there for a moment. What are you doing? I know you have some programs that you’ve set up on impacting conversations and even creating conversations where you said, okay, I can’t control them, but I want more of them to happen. So let’s talk about what you’re doing.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Oh, great question. So, first of all, we’ve been right. And I tell you exactly where we started. We recognized that we have employees who are very, very passionate about wanting to build their personal brands. And we literally kind of cast a net out there and said, hey, who is interested in building, establishing a building, growing a personal brand? We reached out to them, and the first thing we did was recognize there are so many of them. We brought them into the fold and started to have certain conversations. And the conversations weren’t necessarily about the company brand, what there were about how can we support you in helping to build that? So we started to talk about, well, providing training opportunities, personal brand building workshops, providing great content, helping them to start to meet each other and share examples of people who are out there in our industry who are doing the same thing and experiencing a tremendous amount of success. And so that’s where we started. And what we also showed them is examples of how these conversations are happening and especially am ready to talk about what’s happening in the industry, how others are benefiting, and showing them that, hey, you can benefit as well. And so that’s really where it started for us. It’s identifying the right people with the right mindset, wanting to do this and also taking it to the next step of empowering them with towards the training, the knowledge that they needed to get started and then showing them the ultimate benefit to get them excited about wanting to jump in. So that’s exactly where we started.
Bill Sherman So you’ve now been running this program for a while, right? Who are some of the people who have taken those ideas and skills and what are they doing and how are they basically increasing their presence and their visibility? So tell me some of the success stories, if you will.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Sure. And that’s a great question. So what I’ve found is that the outcome or the journeys that have taken place by the individual employees who are part of the program varies depending on where they are in the organization. I’ll be very frank. So for the frontline team members who are more in sales, right, they recognize the powerful benefit in helping them to hit their sales targets. I’m just going to keep it real. Right. So they have a serious target to hit and they recognize that being out there and piggybacking on the company brand, putting their content out there saying, hey, I’m available to have a conversation and people reach out to them because they recognize they’re part of the team. They’ve been having great success and they’re very comfortable with that. What we’ve also found that’s interesting, though, and it’s been in even inspiring the salespeople on the front line is in our support areas like marketing, like operations and so on. They have taken up the mantle of building their own personal brands, but they also focus on their passion projects. Like I said, first of all, they don’t have the immediate burden, quote unquote, of a sales target, but they recognize that there is room for them to build their personal brands. And they have started to do things like travel, blogs, folks have gone into life coaching, done certifications and created pages and delivering great content on life, building skills and so on. And what we’ve found, again, is that the brand benefits from those people also, because, again, you recognize that, hey, this organization has employees, people who are living very balanced, happy, fulfilling lives. And it’s not just all about the work. And it’s just been a wonderful thing to observe and see how it’s been really benefiting so many team members who’ve chosen to jump in with both feet on this.
Bill Sherman I think one of the things that stands out to me is when people speak from a place of passion, it’s easier to talk about ideas. And this is the place that I want to start making connection with the leadership, right. Is it’s very hard if your from an organizational perspective to try and get everyone in the organization excited to talk about the big idea that the C-suite has. Right, because they may not have as much comfort talking about ideas. And so what I like about this program and saying, hey, get used to talking about things you’re passionate about. You build those skills as an individual for talking about ideas and whether that’s life, coaching, travel, whatever. Then you can start saying, Oh, I can talk about other things. And it’s not as scary, right? Because I think a lot of people shut down in talking about ideas because they don’t know where to start.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Yeah, yeah, I would totally agree with that. And if I may use my own personal experiences, please. Right. Thank you. You know, because I’m a CMO and everybody would probably think, well, you’re an executive and my job is to represent the brand. And I and I’m totally comfortable with that. But I personally even had reached a point where in my own journey I said, you know, I felt like I kept hiding behind the company brand. How can I step out and add value as an individual marketer of just about 20 years experience to an industry of people who really just wanted to hear about me and my experience. And that kind of led to the internal marketing podcast because when you talk about thought leadership, it’s about having conversations in a way that no one else is having them. That’s where it starts. It’s looking at that landscape and saying, Hey, everybody. So even if it’s travel, everybody’s talking about travel. What’s that aspect of travel or traveling that people aren’t talking about? You have tons of marketing podcasts. How many podcasts are dedicated and digging into the area of internal marketing and employee advocacy? At the time, I could find none. And so that’s really where it started for me. And just to underscore your point, that’s really at the heart of thought leadership. It’s really recognizing there is room for me at the table to have the conversation, especially if I’m able to find an angle and I can generate content that pausing to people in a way that no one else is pouring into in this space.
Bill Sherman If you are enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about the podcast, please leave a five star review and share it with your friends. We are available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all major platforms as well as at LeveragingThoughtLeadership.com. And internal marketing for you is a bit of a passion, right? Totally is.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Yeah.
Bill Sherman So I think from the perspective that if you’re responsible for marketing and you cannot get the people inside the organization excited about your ideas, it is unlikely to impossible to get anyone outside of the organization excited about them.
Kerry Ann Stimpson You hit the nail on the head. As I always say, if or employees aren’t passionate about the brand, how are we going to get our customers to be passionate? Because the customers feed off of the employees. And if employees aren’t passionate about or able to deliver on the brand promise and we’re inauthentic and our clients will totally smell that from a mile down the road.
Bill Sherman So given that this is both a passion for you and this is where our intersection really lies, how do you get people in the organization to feel that excitement? As you said, there’s always this tension between I work for myself and I’m self-interested versus I’m with this organization. How do you navigate that tension? How do you get people excited?
Kerry Ann Stimpson Well, it’s a couple of things. I mean, first of all, I always like to start from a place of acknowledging what’s really at the foundation of a lot of the tension that occurs in these kinds of conversations, which is you have the company and the brand on one side getting very nervous about empowering employees to start using their voices. And then you have employees who are equally nervous that, hey, will I lose my job or what have you? So from my perspective, it starts with the basic housekeeping of do you need whatever policies and procedures are on social media usage in place to make sure that those boxes are checked? I totally would recommend that, and that’s the place to start. However, in terms of getting people excited now again it comes back to, well, how do we identify the benefit to the individual, the benefit to the company, and allow those two points to intersect? All right. So from where we sit, you say, well, if travel is your passion and you want to use advice for travel. How can we support you in helping to share your voice? First of all, we give you the permission to do that. We give you the freedom to do that for them so they don’t feel like, well, I need to be careful about what I say. We’re like, Look, we trust you. We’ve employed you. Go ahead and do your thing. They get the benefit of that. We create community with everybody who wants to be a part of this journey. So people are sharing ideas. People are learning from each other. People are being inspired because there are some people who come in a little bit timid, you know, they want to speak, but they’re not quite sure their imposter syndrome is a thing. How do we build community around each other to support each other and being bold and using our voices and then ultimately sharing those wins? Because we can get real intellectual about how great this thing is, but we invite everybody to come back to the table and share the wins. How has this been benefiting me? How has this been working for me? And of course, the company can also say, well, this is how we see the benefit to the organization as well. So it’s a multifaceted thing, but I’d say those are the ways to get folks excited and them engaged.
Bill Sherman Well, and GMB is at its heart a financial services company. Right. Which by nature tends to be a little bit more cautious and having to pay attention to regulation and compliance. And so this message of we trust you to go out and speak and to talk about your passions, I know that there are many organizations that aren’t in financial services, are aren’t heavy regulated, heavily regulated. They can look at this and go, well, if they can do that, so can I.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Absolutely. And it starts with, first of all, knowing your brand, knowing your why, your purpose as a brand, and Jeremy’s purpose and yes, for financial services. But we’re nontraditional in the sense that the purpose why we exist is to cause people to experience love and to realize the inherent greatness that’s within them. And that’s not something we sat down and made up. That’s literally the basis on which we were founded. So when you start from a place of why you attract people who share that, why and in how they operate because you want them are totally on the same page. Then what they emanate lines up with your purpose and your why. So again, that’s where the confidence comes from. So it’s not about being nervous that we’re going to have some folks out there spouting content that’s going to bring the brand into disrepute because we’re confident that we know our why as a as a team or employees, how we’ve onboarded them, how we’ve maintained the culture within the company. We’re all aligned around that way. And so everything that’s going to come from the brand and come from both the personal content of our employees and the company is all going to line up just the same.
Bill Sherman Let’s stay on this for a moment. You talked about that. Why? And that mission to experience love. How do you internally communicate that? Right. Because that’s an internal comms challenge where I could see some people saying, oh, that’s just a poster on the wall, or that’s corporate speak. It’s a little bit squishy, but really. Right. Yeah. How do you communicate that in a way that people feel it’s real? Because it’s a bold idea.
Kerry Ann Stimpson It is. It is. And, you know, my head up culture will probably say, first and foremost, we don’t communicate it because communicating it would suggest that we’re really just telling you something and then you subscribe to it.
Bill Sherman That’s a form. That’s a fair call out. Yeah.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Thank you. It is. And I mean, it’s okay, you know, because I give it a lot of people feel that way. I some people feel that way, too, about internal marketing. But when I talk about starting from the why and the purpose, it starts from, well, who are the people that we are onboarding, recruiting and attracting so that ensuring that the people who we are bringing into the organization, their values are aligned with our values. So once they come in, yes, they’re going to go through the onboarding process, you know, orientation onboarding. We have certain sessions that dig in into helping us to make sure that we are clear about the mission, the vision, the purpose and so on. But because we are already aligned on the same level with the purpose and the why and the internal comms, it’s really just about reinforcement at that point. It’s not even about trying to promote something or to sell an idea or promote an idea. It’s just about reinforcement and maintaining that space for that to flourish and grow and continue to remain at an optimal level. And that’s the only way I can say it. So it’s really about culture maintenance is what I would more so say it is than it is just straight, you know, communication. So when we communicate, it’s from a place of, well, we are already aligned. This is what we’re doing to make sure that we maintain that alignment.
Bill Sherman And making sure that when something new is shared, you can go back to that y and say, okay, does this align with what we’re trying to stand for?
Kerry Ann Stimpson Totally. I can give you a great example of there was there was there was an incident and I talk about it all the time where a fellow executive was disappointed in something that I had not done. And he was very upset. It was that it was a project that didn’t go the way that he thought it should happen. He was very upset. And he came into my, he confronted me in the hallway and he was really very upset. And I understood why I totally didn’t take that away from him, but he was getting louder and he was getting too aggressive at that point. And what I said to him was this. I said, okay, I’m hearing you. What? Listen, how you’re speaking to me right now is inconsistent with the values that you and I subscribe to as part of this organization. So I recommend let’s step back, take a minute, and then come back and talk about this when we’re at a place that we can do so again in a way that’s consistent with our values. And he just stopped. He just stopped because again, there is that alignment. Do you get what I’m saying? It’s not it’s not about I’m trying to sell an idea and it’s going to be.
Bill Sherman You held the mirror up and it was the moment where he went, oh, you’re right. Yeah.
Kerry Ann Stimpson You’re right. Yeah. And because he had already signed on to it, I was signed on it. We are confident that we are all signed on to it. And so that’s really what it’s all about. It’s making sure that we’re on the same page. And so when you work in an in culture like that magic like that happens where you just get it, everybody gets it, and we can hold each other to account in that regard.
Bill Sherman And this is, I think, the place in terms of when the culture is strong and it reinforces then going back to where we started this conversation, if you have good people that you trust and you have a strong culture, then you don’t need to be afraid of dark social.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Yes. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that’s what we see happening, because I’ll just, again, use another great example. When we do our brand awareness studies for gym envy, we are among the top brands in Jamaica for financial services. Right. However, when you look at like or share of voice or ad spend, we are not at the top at all. I would say my major competitors easily spend about three or four times on marketing and we’re able to spend. But when you look at things like brand sentiment, brand mentions, especially on legitimate social now, which I think will also translate and impact dark social as well, which is obvious. Right? Right. But when I look at brand sentiment on brand mentions, we dominate sentiment and most months dominate mentions. And when we look at where those mentions are coming from, they’re not coming from our company account. They’re coming from people. They’re coming from customers. They’re coming from team members. They’re coming from friends and family. Say, Hey, I hear Jimmy’s great. My aunt is a customer and she loves it. And we literally can almost stay silent most days and know that it’s the voices of the people who are aligned with us and are loyal to us to carry our message, even when we are not able to do so because we don’t have the resources to do it. So to me, that’s the ultimate benefit. And it’s just one of.
Bill Sherman Well. And this is where the embracing of allies and ambassadors to share a message allows you to punch well above your weight. And as you said. It’s not determined by advertising spend.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Yeah, right.
Bill Sherman And you can get an idea or a message. Reach further. Be trusted more than you know. If you bought every billboard in Jamaica. Yeah.
Kerry Ann Stimpson There you go. There you go. Just like that? Just like that. Because the billboard wouldn’t even enjoy the same credibility either.
Bill Sherman Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kerry Ann Stimpson So.
Bill Sherman As we begin to wrap up, one of the questions I want to ask you is you’ve mentioned you’ve been sort of honing your marketing skills over the last 20 years. And one of the things that I’ve heard is almost a shift from classical trained marketing to accepting what you can control and what you support. What advice would you give to someone who is starting out in a marketing role, who’s concerned about social, concerned about thought leadership based on what you’ve learned?
Kerry Ann Stimpson Wow. That is an excellent, excellent question. And I’m just going to take a pause right now to make sure that I’m going to answer it in the way that I intend. I think it goes back to when I talk about my experience right now with GMV, recognizing that depending on where you work, whether it’s a startup, whether it’s a major organization, most times we as marketers probably would have or will never have all the resources that we need to do everything that we need to do. But what I’ve come to accept is the power of your army, the power of an army of people that you can create as a brand who can carry your message for, you know, the obvious army that I think a lot of most marketers learn about in marketing school is our customers, right? So we love our customers. And loyal customers are awesome, awesome advocates and ambassadors.
Bill Sherman That’s why Net Promoter Score got all the buzz that it did for so many years.
Kerry Ann Stimpson Absolutely. It’s a thing. It’s absolutely a thing. Now, when we talk about and on the employee side, which is not my area of focus, is that I think for too long marketers have not placed the level of importance on engagement and employee empowerment to be advocates as we should. Right. And we need to recognize that as we put our messages out there, each and each and every single day, and we talk about all these wonderful promises we’re making to the customer, we’re not doing enough to engage the army of people who need to be delivering on that promise. What are we doing to invest in them and empowering them? And once you do that again, when you talk about an efficient and effective way of doing marketing, you can almost kick back some days that I said, and they’re carrying the message for you and they’re having the conversations in those dark social spaces with their own networks of family and friends who trust them. And you wouldn’t even know it’s happening. But because you engage them and empower them, you can literally go to sleep at night and sleep very well knowing that it’s a message that, you know, you want people to hear. And that’s my message to marketers. It’s let’s not continue to undervalue our team or team of employees. They are the advocates that you need to have in your arsenal to leverage the brand, build it, and to drive growth.
Bill Sherman I think that’s a wonderful place to wrap this conversation. Carry on. Thank you for joining us today. And if someone wants to I know you mentioned your podcast to find you. Where do they find you?
Kerry Ann Stimpson Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation, Bill, and I appreciate your having me. Well, I’m on LinkedIn. Kerry Ann Simpson, you’re free to search for my name to find my podcast. Just Google the internal marketing podcast and it’s going to come up. So click on Subscribe. Have a listen. Give any feedback that you’d like and share it with a friend or colleague where you think they find the information valuable as well. So I look forward to connecting with everyone. I’m also on Twitter as well.
Bill Sherman Thank you, Karen. If you’re interested in organizational thought leadership, then I invite you to subscribe to the RTL newsletter. Each month we talk about the people who create, curate, and deploy thought leadership on behalf of their organizations. Go to the website. OrgTL.com and choose Join Our Newsletter. I’ll leave a link to the website as well as my LinkedIn profile in the show notes. Thanks for listening and I look forward to hearing what you thought of the show.