Competing on a higher level with thought leadership. An interview with Heather Dondis about using…
Drawing attention to global issues through the use of thought leadership.
An interview with Reilly Brock about using thought leadership to bring attention to the global food waste problem, and how to participate in simple solutions every day.
Does your thought leadership solve global issues? How do you draw attention to a multinational crisis, on a personal scale?
Our guest in today’s episode is Reilly Brock, the Associate Creative Director at Imperfect Foods. Imperfect Foods is a weekly grocery delivery service on a mission to build a better, less wasteful food system. Through their efforts, they help people save time, money, and the planet.
As Associate Creative Director, Reilly has a passion for making the average person aware of the global food waste problem, and giving them options to waste less food. Through his work, he educates customers on ways to increase and improve regional sourcing, utilize food that would otherwise be squandered, and make empowered decisions. They pay attention to wide-scale problems (like the reason Imperfect Foods doesn’t sell bananas), so their customers can feel assured that their choices are having a positive impact on the world.
Reilly has been delivering his message in long form writing, infographics, and even a podcast, in order to engage different audiences through the mediums they prefer. He, and Imperfect Foods, seek to spread the message that even multinational problems can be solved by individual action. By creating a sense of agency for their customers, Reilly creates excitement, so his audience will further share the ideas. That way, he can create an even broader movement.
We close with useful advice for those just starting out in a thought leadership role. Reilly explains why you should determine who your audience is, and just as importantly, who your audience is not. Don’t water down your content to reach a wider audience. Focus your efforts where you can have the most impact, and your audience will carry the message forward for you.
Three Key Takeaways:
- Thought Leadership has the power to shine a light on invisible problems, and provide tangible ways the audience can get involved in solving them.
- Don’t dilute your Thought Leadership message! Instead, use different mediums and types of content to reach a wider audience.
- When creating powerful Thought Leadership, make sure you have evergreen content that draws your audience back — time and time again.
Join the Organizational Thought Leadership Newsletter to learn more about expanding thought leadership within your organization! This monthly newsletter is full of practical information, advice, and ideas to help you reach your organization’s thought leadership goals.
And if you need help scaling organizational thought leadership, contact Thought Leadership Leverage!
Bill Sherman How do you attract attention to an issue? Often problems go unsolved because they’re invisible. And so it becomes the responsibility of thought leadership to shine a spotlight on the issue and make the right people aware of it. My guest today is Rilley Brock. He’s the associate creative director for Imperfect Foods, and he serves as the chief storyteller for the brand. This involves acting as a communications bridge between the world of agriculture and the grocery buying public. I’m Bill Sherman and this is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Ready? Let’s begin. Welcome to the show, Riley.
Reilly Brock Hey, thanks so much. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Bill Sherman So I want to dove right in and ask a question about thought leadership with imperfect foods. What is the message that’s at the heart of imperfect foods thought leadership?
Reilly Brock I’d say our core message is that food waste is an enormous but very solvable problem and that all of us can and should get involved in solving it. And that actually solving it can be a lot of fun.
Bill Sherman So say a little bit more about that, right? So unpack that for me because I think for a lot of people, the concept of food waste is invisible, right?
Reilly Brock Totally. Yeah, it’s interesting because I think for a lot of us, amnesty, there’s a lot of shame and stigma about food waste. When you’re talking about some of his personal life, like nobody wants to admit to wasting food, even though we all do it. Just, you know, the numbers bear out in our lived experience is that everybody wastes food, and that’s OK. I think what we try to push people to think about is there is the level of food waste in your home that you are very much in the driver’s seat of that you’re super empowered to change. And then there’s also all sorts of upstream waste that you as a consumer might not always be aware of. But that is actually a big part of the food system and a really kind of solvable inefficiency that we can all do our part to address. And so with our thought leadership and imperfect and all of our content we share, we really try to do both of those things right? Give people tools they can use in the home space to waste less food and also raise awareness about where is their food going to waste or getting undervalued upstream. Because that’s another realm in which they can also leverage and have an impact.
Bill Sherman So who is your audience for thought leadership in this case? Who are you trying to reach?
Reilly Brock Yeah, it’s it’s kind of two cohorts. I mean, at the core, it’s really our customers, right? Like, we want all of our customers to feel super informed about our mission and why it matters. And also again, you know, like feel empowered in the kitchen like they’re in the driver’s seat and their decisions in the kitchen, how they shop, store and cook food really can make a positive impact on their lives and also on other folks lives. I think in a bigger sense, though, we do want to be kind of a beacon of inspiration in the larger food industry in general and helping people kind of rethink grocery for the better. I think the grocery industry has had kind of a bad reputation for food waste for a couple of decades now. And, you know, it’s gotten to be this behemoth that just produces tons and tons of food and also waste tons and tons of food. And so we really want to be a voice of content that folks out there that either work in the industry or are curious about what a more sustainable food system might look like. You know, we want to give them some resources, some ideas, some tips, some inspiration so that they can rethink food waste in their life, whether that’s professionally or personally.
Bill Sherman What modalities have you been using to get that information out there and what’s working?
Reilly Brock Yeah, that’s a good question. You know, I think for us, it’s been a couple of modalities. You know, there’s obviously the traditional blog post, which is, I’m a writer at heart. I love writing a nice, long form blog post, and some of them do get read. I think people always say, Oh, like longform is data that people only want. You know, their attention span is like three seconds now, and I think that’s true to a point. But also, I think there is a core curious audience out there that might not be you’re the biggest number of people, but there’s some of the most engaged people. And I found they actually do really like longform stuff, so we definitely do a good amount of blog posts. But in terms of other medium, we really have found like infographics and Instagram perform really well like people love. For example, we did one the other week on like how many times you can recycle different materials. You know, for example, that glass and aluminum are effectively indefinitely recyclable, whereas plastic and paper, it’s it would be more effective to call it down cycling. You know, you can only get a couple more iterations out of them and posts like that where you’re able to convey stuff both visually and with text, I think always does really well. It really helps kind of bring the info to life. And then I’d be remiss on your podcast if I didn’t mention that we also have a podcast and we’ve had good luck. They’re doing thought leadership as well, interviewing change makers and business, you know, authors, activists, entrepreneurs and basically anyone working to make food more accessible, less wasteful, more sustainable in the long run. So we really try to, you know, use a variety of different mediums because I think, you know, there’s kind of a different kind of type of person might engage with each one, you know?
Bill Sherman Well, and in addition to different people, I think there’s sort of a progression of awareness, right? So you may stumble across something on an Instagram post and then later encounter that blog article and go, Oh, that was interesting. Tell me more, Tony, you and I. We love to write. We love to read. I like longform sort of pieces, but not everybody wants to, and we don’t have time for all the longform.
Reilly Brock Right? Definitely. I like to think about it in terms of kind of like an atom where I think of the nucleus of a lot of stuff. I like to think of the longest form piece of content because that’s where the most context is both for me, writing the other pieces, but also for the, like you said, the really curious audience. And then there’s also this auxiliary content that maybe takes bits and pieces of it and repurposes it out and kind of like the outer shells of the atom, but at the core is like the longest form expression of it, whether that’s like a podcast or often a blog or something like that. But then you can always, like you said, get extra mileage out of it, which I think is a brand is always a great idea to use your creative wisely because, you know, creating content. Takes a lot of time and effort, but also for like that for the customer to give them a bunch of different ways to digest it because not everybody wants that long term thing, or at least not everybody wants it immediately, like you said.
Bill Sherman Well, and I think you’ve got two potential audiences that may be worth sort of segmenting out current customers and then prospective customers, right? So the people who already work with you and get groceries delivered versus people who say, Yeah, this is interesting. Tell me more as to why this is better than another solution. And so you have to do persuasion through thought leadership.
Reilly Brock Totally. Yeah. For the prospective customer, it might like, you said it is kind of this interesting invisible problem, especially like farm level food waste. You know, most of us don’t spend our days on farms, so you’re forgiven for not knowing that a lot of stuff literally will not get picked because of how it looks or gets sent to animal feed because of how it looks. And so it’s part of our job as an organization. Doing thought leadership is to raise awareness about that and say, Hey, like our food system is broken and a lot of ways, here’s a very tangible way that I think a lot of you will resonate with that. We’re trying to make it work better, and here’s a really tangible way you can get involved with that. And I found that when we can frame it like that for people, it’s not super hard to persuade them. But you do like you said, you have to raise awareness that this problem exists in the first place because ironically, the reason most people don’t know about the enormity of the amount of produce that isn’t making it off the farm is because it’s not making it off the farm. They never see it in the grocery store. So unless you’re on a farm or you grow your own produce and you know that, oh, the other stuff does grow in all shapes and sizes that you might not even know about this this problem existing in the first place.
Bill Sherman And I think that points to one of the functions of thought leadership, which is incredibly powerful, which is making the invisible visible. Yeah, it has the ability to shine that spotlight on a problem that others would just walk past day after day.
Reilly Brock Totally. Yeah. And I think also to give people tools to meaningfully address it and not just superficially address it or address it in a way that feels nice but isn’t actually moving the needle that much. And so that’s again, where we try to show people, you know, day in and day out, even just on the home level. Like, there’s so many different ways you can address or prevent food waste in your home, but we always try to point people towards the most effective modalities. Whether you’re talking about home or out in the larger food system, always look upstream. And so we’re always trying to help people kind of reframe like knowing what the biggest causes of food waste are, you know, painting that that through line for people really helps you become a more informed participant in solving them because you’re actually able to address the core problem and not just necessarily maybe some of the superficial symptoms.
Bill Sherman Well, and if you think about grocery stores, people have been conditioned. Hey, there’s a nice looking apple versus one that may be less perfect looking, so I might give that to my kid for a lunch or something. I’m going to choose the good looking one. And when you have millions of customers making that individual choice, all of a sudden you start skewing demand and say, Oh, customers will only buy perfect looking apples. So you have to almost do a jump start to remind people, Hey, there are other buying options out there.
Reilly Brock Totally. Yeah. It has been, you know, I think early on that was a really big challenge just to show people like, Hey, like apples, don’t all look like this. What’s been cool actually for me is someone has been doing this at this company for five years now. I think we actually have moved the needle like when I started at the company. And this is not just imperfect. I think the food system in general has progressed. But when I started at the company, food waste was this kind of niche issue. Like there had just been one John Oliver segment about it, and it felt like people were starting to wake up like, this is a problem out there we should address. And I don’t know. My sense of it now is that it has become more mainstream and you have major corporations coming out making statements about, Hey, we got to do better than this. And I think that’s been really inspiring to see that this isn’t a niche issue. This isn’t just a quirky startup issue. This is something that every, you know, business and every individual and every government is starting to wake up to, especially in the frame of climate change, like if we’re going to meaningfully address climate change, which we have to, you know, food waste is the low-hanging fruit of the low hanging fruit, right? Like if we’re talking about preventable methane emissions, for example, landfills or some of the biggest sources of methane emissions in this country. What is one of the biggest component of landfills, food scraps? Right. So there’s no reason we need to be sending food scraps to landfills other than often. There’s not good infrastructure for composting or people simply don’t know like good strategies to prevent food waste. So, yeah, like I bring that up only because I think it’s another interesting example of how just that raising awareness and paying that through line for people with thought leadership content can really help, you know, wake people up and say, Hey, like, this is really important and you can and should get involved. And it it’s actually not as hard as you might think, and in fact, it can be. Really empowering because the funding of a few races, it’s not it’s a rare bipartisan issue in environmentalism. I’ve yet to meet anyone that’s like, I’m really stoked about how much food we’re wasting, and I think that’s awesome in this day and age.
Bill Sherman Well, and I want to underline something you’ve used language like empower or take action and a sense of agency. And I think one of the things that really makes the leadership distinctive is it’s that ability to point out the problem and then make it easy for people to know what they need to do.
Reilly Brock Totally.
Bill Sherman And talk to me a little bit about how you’re creating that sense of agency and how you’re communicating that. How does agency sort of drive the message?
Reilly Brock Hmm. Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think the first step to creating agency for other people is kind of creating it for yourself, like understanding the problem in depth so that you can kind of see the bigger picture because I think, you know, even as professionals who kind of research this stuff, it can be you can get kind of stuck in just one piece of it. But if you if you just keep asking follow up questions, keep looking at the bigger picture. I think it becomes really empowering for yourself to see, wow. Like, here’s three ways I think I can make a bigger impact in my life. And then I think once you get an issue, once you kind of get that understanding and internalize it better, then I think for me, I just feel like it creates this. This excitement to share, I guess, is the best way to put it. Like what I learn about something that I find really exciting is like, Wow, this could be really impactful. There’s this like, I feel like I just have to I need to. It’s like a spring, just like I need to go out and share this with more people. So I think that energy and that kind of eagerness to share knowledge with others like that’s really at the core of my process is I try to find I try to find questions that are interesting enough where the answer might be that exciting if that makes sense, like if we’re talking about recycling, for example, like it’s such a misunderstood concept and process that like when I have insights where it’s like, Oh, wow, look, this will help me recycle better and I think more people should know this. I think it really it boils down to that is like finding these key things where the answer is warm. People have to know this like and I feel like for me, whenever I find an insight like that, whether it’s a recipe or a cooking tap or just a strategy for shopping like and I feel like this kind of contagiousness that information, I’m like, I got it. Like, spread this around. That’s always like, you know, a green flag like the North Star for me is if it gets me excited and makes me feel empowered. There’s a I’ve learned to kind of trust my instinct on this. Like, that’s normally a really great sign that there are, in fact, other people that will get excited about it. And I think part of what’s so important with sustainability content is a lot of this stuff is not taught in schools. And so I also see the role of thought leadership is, like you said, kind of shining a light to stuff that again, frankly, I think people should be taught in schools like I think people should learn basic stuff like financial literacy and how to feed yourself and school, and they should also learn what recycling is.
Bill Sherman Just food come from. Yeah.
Reilly Brock Where does food come from? What recycling is? What isn’t? Why composting is important. Like, it’s some of these basic sustainability things, because unfortunately, the alternative to that is you either learn from it from, like big industry, which never will really give you clear cut info. Or you kind of just get this soup of like what the media is saying and kind of what the, you know, the dominant narrative is, which is often, like, really incomplete, right? So I see a huge challenge is just like, how do we get back to basics around stuff like food and really show people some stuff that yeah, that should that should be common knowledge. And let’s kind of democratize that like, that’s a really key driver.
Bill Sherman So I have the advantage if we’re recording with video on Zoom and I can see sort of the spark in your eyes as you were talking about that spring of energy when you find the story or the insight that you want to share. I think that is one thing that is absolutely essential because your audience will never be more interested in a topic than you are, right? If you’re bored, when you’re creating the asset, they’re going to check out totally.
Reilly Brock They can taste it. And that’s what I found really good. Made the best content I feel like I’ve produced has been stuff for. I was just really stoked about it.
Bill Sherman And it’s the I’ve got to share this because if I don’t, then it’s just going to stay buy bottled inside of me and I’m just going to vibrate until it comes out. So if you are enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about the podcast, please leave a five star review and share it with your friends. We are available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all major platforms, as well as at LeveragingThoughtLeadership.com. You mentioned you’ve been with imperfect food now for five years. Yes. How did you get into the world of thought leadership? Give me a sense of that road. You mentioned writing, but paint the story for me.
Reilly Brock Mm-Hmm. Yeah, I think, yeah, I was. I was lucky when I joined. It was that I was one of the first people in the marketing team. So at that stage they needed everyone to do a little bit of everything. But they also, when I joined in 2016, they really needed someone to just be like a brand evangelist and just be really excited and raise awareness about these topics. And that’s, I think, just one of my core characteristics as a person, as I get, I’m very curious and I get really excited about stuff. And so I think early on it was just kind of intuitive and I was almost like kind of stand up comedy for me, where each week on social media, I would just try out content. And the great thing about social is the format is it’s very iterative and you learn very quickly what people like, what they don’t, what stats resonate, what don’t, what images work, what don’t. And I think from there it was a sense of as we grew like, I needed to kind of formalize that more and do more than just kind of one off stuff and social media, but start to build tentpole content that’s like evergreen and people can really come back to empower them in the long term. Because the blessing and curse of social media is how ephemeral it is. It’s very bright and always new and interesting, but it’s also really easy to lose track of that really awesome infographic. And then you’re going to shop and you’re like, Wait, what was that infographic about what’s in season right now? And Oh crap, I can’t find out my phone. And so I started to look for ways like How can we create evergreen stuff? So like, for example, our storage guide is like one of our kind of key pieces of content. It’s this free PDF we put out of how to store your groceries. They last longer. And for me, like when I think about like my legacy at this company and what I’m most excited to have built, it’s stuff like that where I feel like people, whether or not their customers, you know, no matter what stage of journey they’re at as an eater, as an environmentalist, they can benefit from it. And even if they never signed up like honestly, even if someone never signs up from perfect, but they think about food storage differently because of a piece of content I created like, I consider that a big win because, you know, we need we need people of all shapes and sizes and backgrounds to be thinking differently about food in this day and age. And so anytime I can create something that you can kind of continuously refer back to, whether that’s a PDF or a podcast episode or a post on our medium page, it’s that evergreen stuff where I feel like, you know, we can really have the biggest impact.
Bill Sherman So within the world of imperfect and even beyond, as you’re reaching out to experts in that, where are you finding the stories and the insights either within imperfect or beyond? How do you find the sources and inspiration for your content?
Reilly Brock Yeah, I think it comes from a lot of places. You know, early on, I kind of decided that my role and a lot of ways was kind of like being an embedded investigative journalist at the company. So I feel like I’m constantly just kind of badgering people at the company about like to tell me more about stuff. You know what, we’re sourcing, you know, new projects and all that, but also just out in the world. I think some of the most inspiring content I’ve felt like I’ve created was around farm visits. Actually, I think in terms of literally grounding you and our food system, like there’s a few things that are better than visiting a farm and meeting the people that grow food and asking them about their struggles and about what they enjoy about it and what’s unpredictable about it. And I think that’s been some of our greatest content, I think. Another source I really like is kind of taking more like wonky like industry data and findings and translating it into terms the public can get behind. So the folks at Refigure do amazing research about food waste, but it’s like very in-depth and very
Bill Sherman great at a table with footnotes or something. Yeah, it’s nobody’s going to be reading that.
Reilly Brock Yeah, some of it is a little bit. I mean, they have this great thing they put out recently called the insights engine that actually kind of took this data and gave it like a fresh face and some really fun interactive pie charts and stuff. But for me, it’s things like that. Get me excited as well. Like when I see kind of industry research where again, I’m like, This should be common knowledge, or there are key insights here that the public ought to know like that. That’s definitely a big inspiration for me. But I mean, I try to just I try to talk to as many different people throughout the food chain as I can. And thankfully, because of, you know, what we do at the company, like I have contacts that a lot of different types of organizations and farms and food producers and stuff. So that’s been really awesome and empowering for me to get to talk to these people one on one. And just I think everyone’s been very giving. I’ve been very pleasantly surprised, like people that grow food for a living are very interested in talking to you about it and, you know, sharing, sharing more about their life.
Bill Sherman As we’ve said, you’ve been in the field now for five years. There are many people who are starting their career or a role in thought leadership over the last year. A. Months. My question for you is what advice would you give someone who’s starting in a thought leadership role? What should they do more of or what should they avoid?
Reilly Brock Hmm. I think a key focus when you’re doing thought leadership is figuring out who your audience is. And also, I think implicit in that is something that’s kind of hard in this day and age, which is deciding who your audience isn’t and then being OK with the fact that this content might actually. It might not be for everybody, but that’s the point. I think a mistake you could make is trying to make it so watered down and palatable for a huge variety of audiences that it’s kind of, you know, it’s wishy washy or or bland. I think your content should have a perspective and a point of view and a goal that matters, I think, to you, first and foremost, I think, like we talked about earlier, if you have that earnest enthusiasm, your audience will get it. And if you don’t, you know, in this day and age, we’re all drowning in content on and off of our phones, on and off of our screens and our computers. So I think it behooves all of us to like if you’re going to go out and create content, you have to know who it’s for. You should really care about the subject. I think ideally and on some level, it should get you excited because, yeah, like it. If you’re not excited, it won’t really translate. I think the other thing is, it’s a great one piece of advice I’ve shares just it really benefits you to be curious and ask lots of follow up questions of yourself during your process and of everyone you talk to along the way. Because I think there’s this great quote I love by Michael Ruhlman, who’s a food writer I really respect. And someone was asking him like, Oh, do you write? Because, you know, a lot about things, and he kind of flip the question on his head and said, I write to find out about things like when I go to write a book. All the topic and focus on the subject of the book will often evolve as I’m learning new things, and the book will only be clear partway through after I’ve asked a bunch of questions and met a bunch of people and learned what they have to say. So I think that’s another thing is be curious and also be open to the fact that what you end up creating might be different than what you set out to create. But if you can kind of ride the wave and trust the process as you’re doing it, you’ll be pleasantly surprised like the type of content you can create just by asking good follow up questions and, you know, being curious, being excited and kind of, you know, knowing who to talk to in a field like it’s been very pleasantly surprising for me.
Bill Sherman One of the powerful things that I think is a thought leadership practitioner that you can say is when someone who is an expert shares something. Acknowledged that you didn’t know that before. Hmm. And I think there’s this sort of secret desire of a lot of us have not to show that we don’t know things. Yeah, but if you say, Hey, I didn’t know that, tell me more than allows the curiosity to run free and people are happy to teach you a little bit of what they know.
Reilly Brock Yeah. Now that’s really well said. I think looking at my younger self, I think I was really often too eager to know it already. You know, and I wanted to, like you said, to feel so secure. And I don’t know, I know that. But like you said, it really benefits you to be curious and yet be humble. Like you said, there’s been so many times where I’ve been humbled. Talking to chefs or talking to farmers about food, and they’ll just lay down knowledge I had no idea about. And I think if you can think there’s a great thing about humility where, like you said, it actually does invite better conversations because if you kind of lower your guard for people and say, Hey, actually, I didn’t really know about that. Can you tell me more? Well, that’s really surprising to me. You’re like, You’re really blowing my mind with that, like, elaborate like, why is this not more common knowledge, people? Then they feel kind of authorized or they feel like elevated, like, OK, wow, like you’re really seeking me out as a position of authority. You’re really respecting my lived experience and my expertise that might be quite different from yours. And I think that’s where you get some of the best conversations
Bill Sherman and people want to feel that you respect them and you’re at them, right? And so you have to come in with that mindset. Otherwise, they’re going to give you the glib surface answer. Yeah. I think one of the things that really stands out to me as I listen to this thread of conversation is how much really the ability for you to look and to ask questions and then pursue them. I get the sense that when you get a question, you’re not letting it go. Is that correct?
Reilly Brock Yeah. There’s been some that are like kind of pet questions that I’ll keep on the back burner, like, have this one someone. One of the earliest questions we’ve gotten it imperfect is why do you not sell bananas? And it’s actually one of these amazing questions. You can make a documentary film or like a really good podcast about, because it’s one of these small questions that the very interestingly big and long answer. And so I had been slowly writing this blog post about why we don’t sell bananas for literally years, and we recently published it and it was such a delight to share, I think, in part because it was gathering momentum for years. And so it just accumulated so many interesting tangents and facts and stories and voices from within the company voices I found when researching it out in the world. And yeah, I think some of the best questions are kind of like that. Like, you might have them for days, months, weeks, years. Even when you finally get to a point where you’re like ready to share, then I think it’s that much more nuanced and fun as a result.
Bill Sherman So I think you and I could talk about the practice of thought leadership for a long time, so as we begin to wrap up here. Riley, I want to ask you if someone is interested in your work, is the thought leadership practitioner or how do they find you?
Reilly Brock Yeah, definitely. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Riley Dot, Brock, Ariella, why be Rosie? And to learn more about Imp., head to Imp. Boots.com or follow us on your favorite social media platform. Check us out on Medium. Check out our podcast on wasted lots of different ways to get involved and also just dove into some of this fun subject matter. We like to share content every week about tips, tricks for making better food and reducing food waste. So, yeah, check us out.
Bill Sherman And you said that the story about why you don’t sell bananas is published. Can we have a link to that in the show notes?
Reilly Brock 100 percent. We’ll throw a link in the show notes. It’s on our content site. The whole carrot. And yes, one of my proudest accomplishments recently was finally answering the question Why do we not sell bananas?
Bill Sherman Thank you, Riley.
Reilly Brock Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.
Bill Sherman If you’re interested in organizational thought leadership, then I invite you to subscribe to the OrgTL Newsletter. Each month we talk about the people who create, curate and deploy thought leadership on behalf of their organizations. Go to the website orgtl.com and choose Join our newsletter. I’ll leave a link to the website as well as my LinkedIn profile in the show notes. Thanks for listening, and I look forward to hearing what you thought of the show.