Leveraging Thought Leadership With Peter Winick – Episode 127 – Mitch Joel

Peter Winick

Episode 127 Leveraging Thought Leadership Podcast - Peter Winick and Mitch Joel

New methods of self-publishing and marketing have opened up the flood gates for new authors in a dramatic way. Do you know how to take advantage of these opportunities?

Our guest is Mitch Joel, founder of Six Pixels Group, and noted author of “Six Pixels of Separation,” and “Ctrl Alt Delete.” He is a visionary, digital expert, and community leader.

Mitch talks about the importance of a strong platform when seeking a traditional publisher, and what you need to know to understand a publisher’s role in marketing your book. He talks about why authors must stay true to their voice, and how to show that you care about your audience. Listen in!

If you are writing a business book, Bill Sherman has some tips for making your business book great!

If you need a strategy to bring your thought leadership to market, Thought Leadership Leverage can assist you! Contact us for more information. In addition, we can help you implement marketing, research, and sales. Let us help you so you can devote yourself to what you do best.

Transcript

Peter Winick Welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I’m the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage. And you’re joining us on the podcast, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today I’m really excited. My guest is Mitch Joel. When brands like Google, Starbucks, Shopify and GE want to leverage technology to better connect with their consumers, they call Mitch. He’s been called one of North America’s leading visionaries. His first book was Six Pixels of Separation, named after his blog and his podcast. And his second book was called Control All Delete. He’s a speaker. He’s an advisor. He’s an author. He is the perfect guest to have on and share his journey with us today. So welcome aboard. Mitch, thanks for coming on board.

Mitch Joel My pleasure. My third book is going to be Six Pixels of Separation. Isn’t Me a Cooking for You.

Peter Winick But make them. Make them, you know, sour pickles not have salad commit if you’re going to do it.

Mitch Joel Well, Montreal, where I live is a big deli city, so I don’t know if I can clearly commit. I think it takes all kinds in life.

Peter Winick Spoken like a very Canadian answer to that. True.

Mitch Joel I apologize now. I’m sorry. Yeah.

Peter Winick And you want apologies in advance for the next thing just so we get it out of the way. We love our Canadian friends. So anyway, Mitch, you know, you’ve got a really interesting platform. You’ve been doing this for a while, and to say the least, it’s been wildly successful across multiple modalities the authorship, the speaking, blogging, etc.. So Shoulder, how did we get to where we are? Because it’s usually never a straight win. A You’re a logical answer to that question.

Mitch Joel No, no. In fact, in my second book, Control at Lead, I talk about the sort of squiggly path that life is. It sort of doesn’t really go sort of bottom left, top right corner right. It doesn’t move in that way. If you really look back on my career, I sort of knew early on that I was interested in media back in the late 80s when I was in my teens, my first real professional job was actually interviewing Tommy Lee for Motley Crue. yeah, I joke, joke. They tell people it’s all downhill from there. But yeah, I mean, I spent a lot of my time writing for magazines before there was an Internet. I spent time back then actually publishing physical magazines. When the Internet came online, I was very much there and I spent a lot of time figuring out how to get media onto the Internet. Helped launch one of the first search engines prior to Google existing got involved in mobile content 20 plus years ago, which is a day and age when there wasn’t any smartphones or even a mobile web browser at that point, and then running a digital marketing agency. When I started the digital marketing agency with my partners in the early 2000s, I just wasn’t really a natural sales person. And so my default was, Well, there’s this cool new thing called blogging. And let me just sort of share my thinking. And I was doing it a lot, you know, seven times a week, basically with no days off. And then when podcasting came out, I just thought, well, this would be an interesting way to take a bit of a break from writing. I could just talk, you know, little did I think, you know, 14, 50 years later, I would still be publishing at that pace. And both the podcast and the blog. Little did I think that that platform would lead to an interest in having two big, you know, book deals, right. Or a speaking career that came out of that for sure. So it was more it was more a thing of just sort of rolling with the punches and doing what felt comfortable at doing what really felt somewhat natural to me. And I say somewhat natural because I don’t think public speaking is ever natural unless you’re a freak.

Peter Winick Yeah, exactly. So a couple of things that you said there that that are really interesting to me that I want to push out a little bit. So, you know, you’ve gotten a couple of good book, great book deals, actually. Right. But I would argue and I’d want to get your take on this, that part of what the publishers saw in you was not just brilliant content, but you already had followership. You already had a platform, you already had an audience. And. Through the power of the Internet. You know what they want from you and they know what to expect from you. So can you talk about sort of how that plays out? Because I think a lot of people are so content obsessed that they forget that you’ve got to have someone to put that content out to that it resonates with.

Mitch Joel There’s a lot of things underneath that. I think, you know, here as we sit in 2019, having a platform is like the only reason most people get some kind of book deal unless they’re famous. Back when I did my deals, which again was sort of the mid or early 2000s, it was a bit different. I think you’re right in that there was an understanding by the publisher it might happen to be Hachette Grand Central, that there was going to be a lot of heavy lifting done by myself and my agency in terms of marketing and talking about speaking. And the answer to that is, of course, there would be like we were excited to do it. But I also think that it was a time when publishers were very much looking to publish books on that topic. And again, you’re sort of walking into a world where someone has a bit of a platform just building a name, and they have a title like Six Pixels of Separation, which wasn’t like a Dummies guide. Not to belittle that, and it wasn’t like a sort of digital marketing 101 or social media is happening. It sort of had a bit of a vibe and a flair to it, and they wanted a piece of that too. So it was a little bit different than it is today. But I mean, there’s no doubt that when I sit down with authors and I do a lot of that work, when we look at things like the book proposal or what it takes to get in front of an agent or publisher or even self-publishing to create the business plan for it. The platform is, is, is huge. And what I mean by huge is not just that you have to have a huge platform. I don’t think you have a huge one. You have to have one that really matters. And I think my big lesson over the decades that I’ve spent writing and building platforms, because even when I didn’t own the platform, I still had a platform with major publications, is that you really have to you know, it’s sort of two things. One is you have to really care about your audience, which I think is true. But I think more than caring for your audience, you really have to stay true to your voice. And my voice is a journey. My voice changes over time. My voice changes from the genres that I’m writing or talking and are speaking to. But like I don’t. I care very little about my analytics. I care much more about what’s in my notebook in terms of my thoughts and ideas and how they come to be crystallized. Right. Is that an article? Is it a blog post? Is it it’s a piece that goes into a speech. Is it you know, is it something for a book? Is it all of the above? And I spend a lot of my energy like I always call myself an info. Like, I just consume a lot of stuff and I just spend a lot of my energy thinking about that stuff and where it might fit. And I’m very respectful of the audience. Like, I’m not, you know, I’m not one to just publish everything and put everything on Instagram and share everything on Facebook. And I try to be very, very selective and respectful of the published.

Peter Winick But okay, that’s fantastic. What are the things that have. Evolved or changed in a way that’s really, really noticeable in the last 10 or 15 years, right? So when you started to build a followership and blog daily, and so 15 years ago, the world was a little bit different. So if I were sitting there today at home thinking, All right, I’m going to do what Mitch did, I probably shouldn’t follow that exact playbook or what would you recommend?

Mitch Joel Yeah, I’m very much a do as I say, not as I do, because the type of content that I’m very passionate about isn’t sort of the thing of the day. Like if you look at my content platform, it’s long form text and long form audio. And the, you know, the word of the day is a short video, live streaming, selfie, Instagram. And even with podcasting being popular like a lot of the shows are, yeah, this was a shorter show. It’s 20 30 minutes by tends to go, you know a bit longer probably double that sometimes triple depending on the guest. So I mean everything has changed in the sense of even speaking. There’s, there’s this whole industry where people that come out of college and want to be a professional speaker. That’s weird.

Peter Winick You, by the way, if you’ve just come out of college, you want to be a speaker. News flash, you really don’t have much to say. Well, you know.

Mitch Joel But you’d be surprised. People like there’s a lot of people making a really healthy living by choosing a topic and just really practicing it like they wouldn’t dater and sort of and again, there’s people who give advice and there are people who speak from experience. I happen to be aligned with you that I like people who speak more from experience than advice. But sure, there’s a massive audience for that. If you look at book writing, I mean, how it’s changed so much. I’m in this day and age now where people basically self-publish and we had, you know, vanity publishing and self-publishing before, but I mean, a real self-publishing that people will spend, you know, 80 to $200,000 for publishing. You know, you could pay your way into the airport bookstores to the Barnes Noble’s of the World now, which is a bit strange. So, you know, I see everything changed in a very dramatic way. And I don’t say that in a negative. I think it just provides a platform for more opportunity. Just means that more speakers are being hired, more people are looking to create books in different ways. Amazon Kindle is a great example of that. And content just sort of develops and evolves. You see people become extremely famous and extremely successful by just, you know, doing great on Instagram.

Peter Winick Sure. Well, and the rules are totally different back in the day. And it wasn’t that long ago, ten, maybe 15 years ago at most, you know, there was the unofficial rule in publishing where as an author and a thought leader, the speaker, you need to get the book, you know, a new book out every 18 months, right? And now there aren’t any rules around that anymore. And in some cases, the way folks are writing a book is sort of a forensic compilation of, you know, two years of blogging and there’s no right or wrong. It depends on what is the right fit for your audience, you know, in the right modality. Yeah.

Mitch Joel I also I also think that it’s very aligned with like Seth Godin is thinking around gatekeepers. Like it is true that we used to have a higher respect for, you know, people who are published in the more traditional places or had a traditional book publisher. And I think that the removal of the Gatekeepers has also opened the floodgates up in a dramatic way that creates a lot of opportunity.

Peter Winick Well, I think that’s right. And I would say I think I’m one of the only dorks left that when I download a new book on my Kindle, I go back to the filler pages to see who the publisher was because I’m in the business. And I’m curious, too. But most people, you know, it starts with these were the best of times. These are the worst of times. You don’t know who the publisher is. Does it really matter what you’re buying? Is the author. What you’re buying is the thought leadership. Next piece I’ve got for you because you’ve done a really masterful job of this in terms of exploring various modalities. So blogging daily and podcasting daily, two very different things. So can you talk about the various modalities and then your choice of frequency in terms of cadence?

Mitch Joel Yeah. So the podcast is weekly and that’s the one podcast. There’s a separation. I do another podcast which is more music based that I do monthly where I interview bass players, but it has a similar format blogging as I call blogging anymore. Like I think I’ve sort of even shifted that language for the nature of the world to be more like article writing. I guess I coconuts. And yeah, I do try to get somewhere in the 4 to 6 range every week. What’s the difference? You know, the podcasts, I’m thinking about it more from the perspective of what’s like, what’s that itch that I can’t seem to scratch, is it? And it usually it’s driven by a book or an author or an area of thought. So it could be blockchain or artificial intelligence, It could be so-and-so published a new book, It could be, I don’t understand this part of business or the world. And who would be the best person to speak to about that? And I look at those to be more conversational. Can I invite the listener in to a room where they might not have had access previously to a conversation that they shouldn’t necessarily be hearing, if you know what I mean? That’s sort of the spirit by which I want to bring to a conversation. So I spend a lot of time thinking about that conversation. And at the areas it’s almost like if someone didn’t. Someone who you really respected, invited you for coffee. You wouldn’t just show up. At least I would just show up. I’d sort of want to have some notes on that. The blogging and the blogging and article writing is a little bit different. I tend to wear more of my journalist hat there. And the only difference with the journalism world that I occupied for a while and writing articles and blogs now to me is I add a bit more me versus when you were typically when I was typically writing professionally, there was very little me or I. And from there it’s more of like.

Peter Winick Your you were the medium, not the nobody cared about the messenger. But now we do care about your perspective, your take, your maybe some of your personality and fingerprints on it.

Mitch Joel Yeah. And I you know, again, I think I’m just stuck a little bit in that type of training from when I was younger that I don’t I don’t embrace those things very well. Like you’re right and that it’s true, but I tend to not embrace it. I tend to still live in a world, and maybe it’s a world of disbelief that my content is more important than it, that it’s me or that I’ve written it, or that the fact that it’s published is more important than where I’m speaking today or who I took a selfie with. And again, I don’t know where that’s from. I just don’t I don’t I love attention to the work. I hate attention on me. And I struggle with that a lot.

Peter Winick So let’s talk about. So that’s a fascinating point because I think there are people fall on a continuum there. There are some folks out there call themselves authors and leaders that it’s all about them, that for some reason they think the world is so curious that you have the Instagram, you know, you’re the smoothie that you had and the latte that you had. And, you know, here I am getting into a car and it’s like, okay, maybe that’s part of their brand or whatever. And then there are others that almost hide too much behind their content and are a little bit shy, a little bit more introverted. So it sounds like you’re you do a nice job of balancing that with the default towards the content. Is the rock star not niche? You’re in service of the content, but play with that a little bit is that it does.

Mitch Joel To a certain degree. Like the analogy and I wrote an article about this not that long ago. I was talking about podcasting because, you know, we we’re seeing this sort of boom of it now, and I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts and I don’t like them. And I was trying to, like, unpack Why? Because they’re really smart people and they have really impressive shows on really impressive networks. And what I realized going for my morning walk one day was, I know what it is. It’s the fact that the person who’s hosting this show is making it all about them and how smart they are and how great they are and how many other things they’re doing versus it really being the attention on the guests and the gracefulness of that. And I guess it’s like if you went to a friend’s house and all they did was show you all of their stuff versus them inviting you in and making you feel comfortable and asking you what type of tea you like or whatever, like making you feel welcome there versus look at me, look at me. And I feel like that microscope that I sort of reflected on the state of podcasting is similar to other pieces of content. You know, it’s the whole thing where people start off talking about something. They’re like, as I wrote in my bestselling book that the World loves it is in 80 million libraries and is number one that like all of that stuff, just it makes me throw up a little bit in my mouth and I get why people do it. And I understand why we do that, why we need to do it in a world where everybody has a media platform, but I tend to default, maybe wrongly, to this place of thought. You know, it’s almost like Aerosmith. Let the music do the talking. Like, let’s let the content do the talking, you know?

Peter Winick Right. Right. Well, and I think that’s right. I always say there’s this combination between sizzle and steak, right? So there are some folks that are all sizzle, low steak. They get a lot of attention. They might be commercially successful. I always find the things that are really interesting and intriguing, at least to me from a content perspective, are more the things that have a lot of steak. There’s a lot of meat to it, and they might not be very sizzle, right? Like they’re just maybe a little more introverted. They’re not as self-promotional or whatever. That’s where you actually find some of the hidden gems versus that. But I think the other point that you made that was interesting is we do live in a world that requires, depending on your opinion, you know, some amount of promotion, some amount of marketing, right? And there’s various degrees to which that’s appropriate. So how does that how does that play for you?

Mitch Joel Yeah, I don’t I don’t know that I have an answer to that. I feel like I feel like everybody does what they want to do and what they’re comfortable with. And like if you want to stand at the top of a building and scream, look at me or you, I do a lot of selfies or do a lot of sort of more reckless marketing. I see a lot of reckless marketing too, are people try to create some sort of social connection between themselves and someone else when that doesn’t exist and they’re just sort of leveraging maybe a quick picture that was taken hotel to be like, we’re best friends type of thing. And I just I genuinely believe in the audience and I genuinely believe that the audience finds the content they want and if you want. That type of content. It’s probably I’m probably not going to have you in my audience. And if you’re sitting there going, I want, you know, more depth or I want less about somebody who’s just being braggadocious or talking about themselves or their network or what they did. I hope to capture and occupy more of that type of audience. And I think the lesson for people listening to us and even to myself that I often have to repeat to myself is that’s okay. Like, I don’t need to have millions upon millions of followers. Would it be nice? Sure. Do I morally think that’s the better way? Sure, of course I do. Is that make it necessarily fairer or how it will be? No, it doesn’t.

Peter Winick So where do you where do you go a little bit outside of your comfort zone, Because we all want to stay in our lanes, but we all need to take a little bit risk and stretch and remain authentic. So what are the things to you that might border on? Yeah, that’s a a little bit out there for me, but I’m worth here. It’s worth experimenting with.

Mitch Joel I do it a lot and I don’t like it. It’s really, it would be like this sort of selfie stuff that I post on either Facebook or Instagram or the I’m at this event talking and I know that people are interested and I know that it’s an interesting I don’t disagree that it’s not I just whenever it’s about me, I just sort of go like, I know I have to do this. I know this is what gets people to, like share it, talk about it. And I know it keeps me in the zeitgeisty, but I can’t sit here and tell you that I love it or I feel good about it. And the filter that I’ve always used and I’ve talked about this before and I talk about it not just because of my huge fan boy, but I get the chance to actually connect with this individual and I respect them and I’ve spent time with them. Is it Seth Godin? I always ask myself, like, what would Seth Godin do? Like what he do this? And so when I do those things and I know Seth wouldn’t do those things, I do get kind of grossed out. But I also do understand that Seth has a much bigger and widely accepted platform, and it also doesn’t have to do some of those things anymore, which is one point. But the other point could be, is that really true? And that by maybe just sticking true and clear to that sort of filter, you’ll still maintain your audience. And it’s more of, again, what Seth would say is the sort of drip, drip, drip over time versus trying to run after that attention. And I think it’s that it’s when the attention is not on the content that I’m always like but I do it. Hey here’s the latest podcast and so-and-so is on it and check it out. And every time I hit publish, I’m like, you know.

Peter Winick Well, that’s great that, well, this has been awesome. From the guy that hates podcasting. I hope you hated this one a little bit. I love.

Mitch Joel Podcasting. I just hate those podcasters. You’re not one of them.

Peter Winick Okay. Now, I don’t know if I should aspire to be hated or not as hated. I’ll have to think about that later. So out there today, is someone in a position similar to where you were 15 years ago when you started down this journey? What would you say to them as we start to wrap here that they should be diving into or considering if they’re going to go down this path?

Mitch Joel I do believe in the power of telling real and authentic stories, and I think people tend to hold back or use industry jargon or get stuck in acronyms or trying to think of like, what will everybody accept? And I think there’s a bit of something missing in truly finding your own voice in a space. It’d be great if you can occupy space that is completely unique in that nobody’s really in. It’s somewhat unrealistic now, but you can always have a unique voice in the space. And I think if you actually take and evaluate, look at the stuff you love, it’s probably someone with a unique voice that don’t shy away from experimenting and you’re going to make mistakes. People are going to get mad and it’s going to be pretty bad at certain points. But overall, if you can create that unique voice that’s going to trump, if you’re creating a lot of content where you’re creating it, how you’re creating it, if you’re creating it, blah, blah, blah.

Peter Winick Awesome. Well, I appreciate your time and I appreciate you being you and just being your authentic self and sharing your journey with us. Because I think there’s a lot here for folks to process and digest and take into account when they’re, you know, building out their platforms and doing their thing. So thanks. Thanks so much for joining us today, Mitch. I appreciate it.

Mitch Joel Thanks for having me, Peter. I appreciate you.

Peter Winick To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at ThoughtLeadershipLeverage.com. To reach me directly. Feel free to email me at Peter at ThoughtLeadershipLeverage.com. And please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.