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The Agile Thought Leader | Scott Ambler
The creation and role of disciplined agile in thought leadership.
An interview with Scott Ambler about the Disciplined Agile toolkit and being part of the PMI ecosystem.
Today’s guest is Scott Ambler, Project Management Institute Vice President and Chief Scientist of Disciplined Agile. Scott is the co-creator of the Disciplined Agile Toolkit, author of Introduction to Disciplined Agile Delivery, and Choose Your Wow.
Scott talks with us about the creation and evolution of the Disciplined Agile Toolkit. After that, we learn how businesses can this toolkit it to create agile teams capable of responding to various situations properly regardless of their skillset. These agile teams are capable of adjusting in the future as they learn and grow.
Also, we discuss the position of Disciplined Agile at PMI and how the two work and learn together to be a stronger single organization. In addition, we delve into how PMI has allowed stronger creation of communities that include chapters all over the world helping people learn and expand their knowledge.
Three Key Takeaways from the Interview:
- How thought leaders can use Agile Discipline to better adjust to any situation.
- Why thought leaders should not get stuck in a “best practice” might not be for the best.
- Why thought leaders need to focus on creating communities and what can be gained from them.
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Transcript
Bill Sherman Hello and welcome to Leveraging Thought Leadership. I’m your host, Bill Sherman. And today we talk about one of my passions organizational thought leadership. That is, the people who create, curate and deploy thought leadership on behalf of their organizations. My guest today is Scott Ambler. Scott is the VP and chief scientist of Disciplined Agile at the Project Management Institute. He’s the co-creator of the disciplined Agile Toolkit. He’s written books on the topic, speaks internationally and writes frequently. Scott, welcome to the podcast.
Scott Ambler Thanks for having me here.
Bill Sherman So let’s start simply. What is your role with Project Management Institute? What does it mean to be the Chief Scientist of Discipline Agile?
Scott Ambler That’s a good question. I wish I had an answer, but I’m joking. Yeah. So basically my role is pretty much exactly as you were saying. It’s to help define and curate and collect all these great ideas that I have and my colleagues have, and the people that we are working with have around how to work in a disciplined, agile manner and what it means and then to share it with others. So I’m a collector of information, a somebody who massages it and then puts it out again and shares it as widely as possible.
Bill Sherman So is that function more of a research function, an evangelist, a mentor function? What is your day like?
Scott Ambler Yeah. All of the above. So it’s I do I certainly do a lot of mentoring and curating and sharing information and getting it out there. The some of it is research. You know, I try to read as widely as I can, but some of it’s also doing a I’m out there in social media talking with others helping them. I you I get to go to events and conferences and into organizations and share ideas and bounce ideas around strategy sessions. So I have a just a wide range of information sources and then opportunities to also share. I’m lucky enough to be in a couple of working groups or advisory boards, I guess you would say. And frankly, they’re awesome because it’s just like smart people getting together, sharing ideas. You know, one of the one of the places I learned the most is on the advisory boards where, you know, we’re all just trying to advise this, these organizations doing whatever it is that they’re doing. So it’s just fantastic opportunity.
Bill Sherman So Discipline Agile is something that you’ve worked on for quite a while, if I understand correctly, right? Yes. Talk to me about the process where I believe it’s 12, 15 years ago you started with this idea of discipline, Agile. Tell me a little bit of that story of how the idea came to be, what it is today.
Scott Ambler Yeah. So what had happened at the time I was the chief methodologies for I.t at IBM. Rational IBM Rational was one of the divisions of IBM at the time and myself and some of my colleagues, including business partners of one of whom was Mark Lyons, who ended up being the co-creator of the tool kit with me and is also at PMI right now. We as a group, we were working with organizations helping them to understand and apply agile and Lean concepts in their own environments. And we were observing, we were observing what they were doing. What was working well was not working well. And some of the observations that we made were along the lines that they put a lot of effort into figuring this stuff out. Nobody really gotten it right. They’re all still working on it. Basically. They some, you know, some are doing reasonably well. Some were in serious trouble. But everybody’s doing it differently. And many of them couldn’t even tell you what they were doing. They you know, they’d say they’re doing Scrum and yet they were doing far more than just Scrum if they were doing Scrum at all. And so we started observing this and we came to the conclusion that two very serious conclusions, one, that everybody was doing everything differently. But two, they really needed some guidance to help them do it. And that sounds contradictory because, you know, when everybody works, everybody’s unique and everybody works differently, and yet they need help to figure this out. Clearly, the usual approach to methodologies and frameworks was not going to get the job done. So we started working on something that eventually became called exponential delivery, which then evolved into what’s now called the as toolkit, as our as our scope expanded. But we’re all about, you know, instead of telling you what to do, we help you to understand what you need to be thinking about and what your options are and how to choose from those options. That way you can choose your own while and actually do what you need to, you know, have a fit for purpose approach for the situation that you actually face.
Bill Sherman So, Scott, you’ve talked about Agile in a way that makes me think of disciplined Agile as a movement, and that’s really where Agile itself started. So we’re talking about discipline, Agile as a movement within a movement. And I find it really interesting because you’re talking about not telling people what to do, but the questions to be asked. You mentioned the concept of Wow. Can you explain that concept and how that fits within the discipline of Agile toolkit?
Scott Ambler Yeah, definitely. So Wow was an abbreviation of way of working. So our intention message is to choose your way of working. And this is a basically a new way of saying to own your process. So, you know, 20 years ago and I believe it was coming on see from the extreme programing community, but certainly from Agile in general was this idea that teams should own their own processes, that they should choose the way that they work, that they should self-organize and they and they should learn and evolve their approach as they go. So the but that was sort of lost in in the as the frameworks became popular and these various methods became popular and, you know, people started making money from certifying people in them. The we got to this point where we were getting reasonably prescriptive and we had a lot of rhetoric around the fact that we weren’t prescriptive, but we really were. And, you know, agile community in general and the challenge that we had. Was that we started telling people what to do. These are the best practices of this method, and if you follow these best practices, everything will be fine and that’s great. But those best practices are best in a certain situation and in other situations are not such good ideas. So in this plan, Agile, our philosophy is and our observation is that every team is unique facing a unique and changing situation. So therefore you want to have a fit for purpose. Wow, A fit for purpose. Way of working that evolves over time as you learn, as you get better and as your situation changes. So that’s the that’s the basic idea there. So in many ways we’re getting back to where Agile originally came from, some original philosophies that were lost along the way.
Bill Sherman So with that, then, you have created a toolkit that people, if I understand correctly, can pick and choose is that and adapt to their way of working. Is that a fair summary?
Scott Ambler Yes, it is. So what we do is we walk you through here the issues. You know, these what we call process goals, and then they break down into process decision points or intentions that you need to fulfill in some way. And then we then we say, hey, you know what? Here’s a collection of potential ways to fulfill those intentions. And the and then here’s the trade offs of those techniques. So you choose the best strategy that you can given the situation, you know, given your current skill set, given your culture, given the situation that you face, because we don’t know you, we don’t know your situation, but you do. So instead of telling you what the best way of working is, we can instead say, you know, here are a bunch of great options. Do the best that you can given your understanding of these techniques. So we describe the techniques and we describe the tradeoffs and then help you to choose better. Knowing full well that the choices you make today, you might change your mind three months from now or six months from now as you’ve gotten better and as you learn.
Bill Sherman So let’s turn a little bit towards some of the signals that I see in, for example, your title, right? When I hear a title of Chief Scientist, I think of structure. I think of rigor and process, disciplined, agile, right? That scientist and discipline suggests a certain way of working. And at the same time, you’re talking about flexibility, way of working. There seems to be a creative tension between the two. And I find that very interesting where you’re inviting people to participate. And I go back to something that you said about your role sitting in on boards and groups and listening. Let’s talk about the process of your role as chief scientist, for example, as listening in.
Scott Ambler So it really is about observation and listening and seeing and questioning. Because, you know, I run into these best practices all the time, and none of them are our best practices. But I when I go to an organization or when I start interacting with somebody and they start telling me about here’s what we’re doing and here’s what’s working, here’s what’s not working. I listen and I observe intently, intensely, because the issue becomes one of I’m always trying to learn about, you know, when you know, when I hear about a new technique or when I see a new way of doing things, I’m asking questions along the lines of at least to myself, you know, what are the advantages of this? You know, when does this work? When does this not work right off here? And how would it fit together with other strategies? So I often sometimes a little too much breakdown, you know, break down a larger technique into its components in order to, you know, look to see how those components are all working together because sometimes our larger techniques, for example, undervalue management. Some people consider that a single technique. And fair enough, in some situations that’s fair. But, you know, there’s actually multiple techniques there that we can pull out and use in situations that make sense and not in the end and not in other situations. So I’m really looking for trying to answer how does it all fit together and when does it work, When it is, when does it not work? To what extent? What I want to do this and I want to get beyond the peer ism that and the prejudice that a lot of people have. You know, you talk to some idealists and you start saying, well, you know what? We’ve adopted some techniques from the traditional serial world and suddenly I’m evil for doing that, right? I’m in pure I’m a heretic or vice versa, right? You talk to the people that prefer a more traditional way of working. And very clearly this agile stuff is evil and would never work. So and there those extreme ideas are simply not right. All these techniques work in some situations and others, so why not learn about that and why not celebrate that and, you know, have a have a wide range, a wide range of options available to you. And so that way you can choose. I think that’s the and have and importantly, you have to have the freedom of choice. And I think that’s where some organizations will struggle. You know, some people really don’t want don’t want their people to have choices. They really want everybody to sort of work in the same manner. And it’s not realistic.
Bill Sherman If you are enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about the podcast, please leave a five-star review and share it with your friends. We are available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all major platforms as well as at LeveragingThoughtLeadership.com. So I’d like you to think back to that point when you were at IBM and starting to developed, what became disciplined Agile. Did you have in your mind at any point that, Hey, I’m going to create a methodology and a movement? You know what? What was your goal in that time? In vision, what did you think you were solving? And does today’s surprise you?
Scott Ambler Yeah, very good question. So. So first, my goal is to not create a methodology. When I when I joined IBM, I had already done that a few times with Agile modeling and Agile data, Enterprise, Unified Process and others. And I’d sort of been there and done that and was hoping never to do it again. And so I really got dragged kicking and screaming into this because I really didn’t want to do it again. And the but there was a clear and it goes back to these observations about there being a clear need for some guidance. So but because I think I was so reticent to jump on the, you know, the methodology bandwagon yet again, it took a good six months for me to really sort of come around to this idea that this was needed and this needed to be done. But I didn’t want to do the same old way. And I really liked extreme programing in its flexibility, although it was it was still prescriptive in many ways, but it was flexible and telling. Well, I sort of like that. There’s a lot of great ideas there. But it really took us a while to come up with this idea of providing choices and making those choices explicit and the tradeoffs explicit. And then then suddenly I realized, you know, okay, we’ve got something here. Let’s run with this and see what happens. So we ran with it. And it just it just keeps growing and a little slower than others. But at the same time, we we’ve always had constant growth. And, you know, we’re in many ways, we’re sort of playing the long game, I guess, because we find more and more people when they run into day and then they, you know, they spend a bit of time looking at it there. Wow, this is fantastic. We you know, we need it. You know, I’ve needed this for so long and didn’t realize it. And, you know, we really do get people that get it and stick to it. So I think there’s a lot to be said there. And then with my behind it, it’s just been fantastic. We now have the, you know, have the resources both to invest in the tool kit as well as in marketing it and getting our message out there. So I think there’s some really good things ahead for us.
Bill Sherman So you mentioned PMI, right? And this is a relatively new transformation of disciplined, agile being part of the PMI ecosystem. Talk to me a little bit about moving into the PMI world and what you’re hoping to achieve or doors that have opened as a result. Let’s talk going forward into the future.
Scott Ambler Yeah, definitely. So we had always respected PMI and leveraged great ideas from PMI. Our certification program was based on PMI. We always had this belief along with PMI, that you had to earn. Your certifications have to be meaningful. And that that really of set us apart in the Agile community for a long time. The but there’s great material in PMI of some great IP that we’d already been leveraging and we’ll definitely be leveraging more. So there was some really good synergies there that we’d already been moving towards. At the same time, PMI was also getting into Agile. For several years we had a we’ve been working on the Occrp certification and program, for example. So they were definitely moving in that direction already. The new version of the Pembroke Guide is the next version released will be have a lot of Agile in it. The new application test will be almost half agile, lean, hybrid type stuff, so it really is being adopted, actively being adopted in API. So we’re, we’re learning from each other and we’re working together well and, and we’re all one organization. And this is a, this is a very good thing. So PMI is really helping us to up our game and to really bring VA into more situations. We were a little bit focused back in the day and which is good. You know, it’s a very important thing. But at the same time we had not been focusing on non i.t as much as we should have. So we’ve really sort of and we knew that we just never had the time and now we have new venues opening up to us for that. So I think that’s some wonderful stuff. And, and like I said, just the, just having the backing of a larger organization that has the depth that PMI does has been a fantastic thing. And the people that we’re working with them, we have an incredibly strong volunteer community and they’re active and they’re smart and they provide great input. It can be overwhelming a bit sometimes, but it’s a good form of overwhelming.
Bill Sherman So you talked about a couple of things there that I want to call out. You know, you mentioned the additional marketing resources to be able to get the message to reach further around the world. You talked about active volunteers and members of the organization who now have a place where they can band together and really help contribute and whether as evangelizing locally or sharing some of their experience and expertise, you’re creating a community for this. Talk a little bit about the community aspect, if you would.
Scott Ambler Yeah, definitely. So you’re absolutely right. So we knew for years that we really needed to build more of a community. And we’ve done a little bit of that with, you know, LinkedIn and other venues. But we, we really didn’t work it as much as we should have. We simply didn’t have time. You know, we were out in the field working at organizations. But now with Kimye, we have this very active chapter community. So, you know, these chapters, the PMI chapters all around the world who are actively helping other people learn and to become more professional and to extend their knowledge and their experiences. So just being able to leverage that alone has been fantastic. We have we’ve built a program called the this Agile Chapter Champions. And what this is, this is a group of people that with 1 or 1 or more and each chapter now who whose responsibility is to help educate the rest of their chapter in discipline, agile and to work with us to get this information out there and to share it and to let you know, let the chapters know what PMI is doing. So, so this is a fantastic thing. We also have a very strong social media group. We do a lot of work on Twitter and LinkedIn and great stuff. We have a great data analytics group as well. So we get really good feedback into what’s working and what’s not working and you know what people are listening to, You know what you know, what are they hearing or what do we think they’re hearing? So there’s a lot of really good stuff going on there. And I and it’s one of those things where, you know, we knew we needed to do things like that. We just didn’t have the resources. And now we’re working with people who are really, really good at this and who really know their stuff. So I’m learning a lot. And, you know, and I hope they’re learning a bit from me. I’m certainly learning a lot from them. And it’s been it’s been really fascinating just the type of intelligence we can get from just out of out of social media feeds.
Bill Sherman So to call that out. I think one of the things that people often think about as creating a movement is there’s this instant critical mass. And once you hit it, things just magically happen. And what you’re describing there is there’s a lot of work behind the scenes, not only with marketing and social media and community building, nurturing community, listening to that community, which is necessary. The larger the movement gets, the more sort of specialty skills you need to make a movement grow faster and further, right?
Scott Ambler Yes.
Bill Sherman So you described that some time ago at IBM. You became sort of the reluctant methodologies going, not another methodology here. But this is the one that now has, you know, breathed life and really scaled. So if you were to offer advice to yourself 10 to 12 years ago or to someone who’s trying to figure out the steps, you know, like you were, in what experience said, what advice would you offer?
Scott Ambler Yeah. First of all, you have to love what you’re doing. And if you don’t love it, people, you know, people will detect that and nobody’s going to follow you if you’re, you know, if you’re just in it for the money, if you’re just doing it to keep yourself entertained. I know. I know a few a few people who are, you know, near retirement that are doing, you know, working that way and some because they love it. You know, don’t get me wrong, but you really do need to love what you’re doing and have a passion for it and to infect others with that passion. In hindsight, you know, if I could go back in time, I’d probably tell myself, spend more time building the community and spend more time coaching others and to create more thought leaders. And we certainly did that. But I think we needed to do more of it. And I think that would it would have been a very good thing for us. But frankly, looking back, though, I’m very happy with the path that we took. So, you know, I wouldn’t want to mess too much with that. But certainly building, you know, building a community faster and putting more effort into that was probably the way to go.
Bill Sherman Yeah. Well, and to build on that, I think the tools that are available for community building today and going forward in the future are an entirely different set than you had available to you when you were starting to build this movement. And so paying attention to those tools for community building, the strength of the movement, the strength of the scale of thought leadership is tied to not do you have a just in a book or written down somewhere, but how many people have you influenced? How many organizations have adopted this and say, We like this way of thinking, we’re going to bring it in and use it ourselves? And so to reach that scale, you’ve got to build a community of followers.
Scott Ambler I believe so.
Bill Sherman Scott, thank you very much for joining us today on the podcast.
Scott Ambler Thank you so much, Bill. I appreciate being here.
Bill Sherman If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please join our LinkedIn group. Organizational Thought Leadership. It’s a professional community where thought leadership practitioners talk shop about our field. So if you’re someone who creates curates or deploys thought leadership for your organization, then please join the conversation in the organizational thought Leadership LinkedIn.
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