Thought Leader Publishing for Non-Fiction Authors | Jesse Finkelstein | 216

Peter Winick

Thought Leader Publishing | Jesse Finkelstein

Publishing Thought Leadership in an Effective Way

An interview with Jesse Finkelstein about helping non-fiction authors navigate the thought leader publishing landscape.

Today’s guest is Jesse Finkelstein, the Co-Founder, and Principal of Page Two, an agency run by publishing veterans helping non-fiction authors navigate their full range of thought leader publishing options to achieve each client’s unique goals. Jesse shares her experience in the publishing world, what to watch out for when signing a contract, how to avoid friction with your publisher and the type of control you can maintain by not going with a big publishing house.

Three Key Takeaways from the Interview:

How Page Two is helping thought leaders have more control over their books.
Why you need to understand the contract you sign in order to get the full potential of putting your thought leadership into a book.
How can you test your thought leadership before codifying into a book.

If you are going to be successful in marketing you book you’ll need to understand “What Makes a Platform Powerful?”

Transcript

Peter Winick And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I’m the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage. And you’re joining us on the podcast today, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today, my guest is Jesse Finkelstein. Jesse has spent her entire career in books. She is a co-founder of a company up in Canada called Page two, which is a very awesome publishing house. And prior to that, she has had several key management roles at publishing houses, and she is also teaches at university. And she’s on the board of Creative B.C., which is an organization devoted to supporting the growth of cultural industries. So welcome aboard, Jesse. How are you?

Jesse Finkelstein Thanks so much, Peter. I’m really pleased to be here.

Peter Winick So I want to just dive right in. Great. So you’ve got a very cool company called Page two is what I would call an alternative publisher. Right. So it’s not all and it’s not vanity. So describe for us, as you see it, sort of the landscape because it’s changing so much between all the different options folks have into what they’re looking at when they’re looking at a publisher?

Jesse Finkelstein Absolutely. Well, page two is a publishing house that’s devoted to doing the best possible publishing work for subject matter experts, thought leaders, people who are writing nonfiction in order to make a name for themselves in their field or to amplify their name for themselves. And also people who are innovating and trying to really make their mark in and showcase their work in a different kind of way. And I love that you use the term alternative because, you know, as entrepreneurs, you’re always trying to help people solve a problem. Right. And we felt my business partner, Trina and I, when we were thinking about founding page two, we kept thinking there must be other ways of doing this. We worked for some wonderful publishers and we were really grateful for that experience. But we noticed that there were a lot of things about the traditional publishing model that didn’t suit the kinds of people we were really interested in serving and publishing, the kinds of people I mentioned. And so we thought, well, let’s build a company around a model that we feel will serve them better.

Peter Winick Touch on some of the some of the things where you felt there was an opportunity in the market because folks weren’t getting served well. So I think that’s a that’s a great, great sort of angle to look at it through it.

Jesse Finkelstein Absolutely. I think of them as points of friction. You know, when you’re working in an area and you keep kind of hitting your head against certain things. And what we found is that, for example, a big point of friction in traditional publishing is the fact that if we’re with most companies as an author, you need to license your rights. So you license the right to publish the work typically in all formats for the full term of copyright, which is, you know, could be well beyond the years on this earth. Right. So that is the big commitment. If the book stays in print that long, if the book goes out of print, then, you know, whatever that means these days on digital terms, that would be it. But that is a massive commitment that I think is kind of people are really waking up to what that means, especially in an era where as business leaders, as entrepreneurs, we’re used to creating and then cultivating and holding onto your intellectual property. For so many people, we know content is king. So the idea of then licensing that to another company, a book publisher, who will have the right within that framework to make all of the publishing decisions on your behalf doesn’t actually make a lot of sense for a lot of people.

Peter Winick So let’s think even in the last 10 or 12 years what the term and definition means around publishing, right? So we weren’t talking about things ten, maybe ten years ago, like audio rights, like international rights, as much like differentiating between digital and hard copy. Right. So even just the book now comes in multiple flavors because most would argue that an audio version of the book is the same thing, but it goes even broader than that based on what you’re saying in terms of training solutions or workshops or using. The gist of the book is as the basis of a video based training. There’s so many other derivatives that we know of today and others that we don’t even know that are popping up.

Jesse Finkelstein Well, I agree with you. And then I’ll just qualify slightly to say I think we knew about those derivatives, but there weren’t as many opportunities for individuals and leaders to cultivate those things on their own. Right. And it’s really the shift in technology accessibility to a variety of media, even printing prices coming down to something manageable for many people that have created this this wealth of opportunity and this these forms of exposure that that we now have and access to these to this kind of media, if you’re able to harness it in the right way and to use it in the right way. So when we. Found a page, too. We thought, Well, we know. We know the best tools. We know the best way to produce work. And I say that without arrogance. When I say the best, the best is actually not us as book publishers telling people, but it’s about us taking the really high standards we cultivated over years of work in editorial design production and bringing those, marrying those with the market intelligence and content intelligence of the authors we wanted to serve. So if we if we marry those things together, it creates what we feel is the best possible publishing scenario for a professional.

Peter Winick So I want to pivot for a moment and break some of the myths that exist. So some of the myths that I hear from clients and these are claims that are really, really smart but maybe haven’t published before is, you know, number one, well, if you’re not published by a big New York publishing house, then then it doesn’t matter know, then it’s something less than right. If you self-publish, that’s a vanity play. The quality of anything other than a big publishing house is not up to par. And you can you shatter some of those myths?

Jesse Finkelstein Absolutely. And I’ll do that with humility, because when we launched page two, we thought, we don’t know. I mean, we don’t know how this is going to be received, this kind of model. Right? We knew with integrity that we were going to serve people in the same way, if not an even more rigorous way than we did when we worked in house. For some, we worked for multinationals, we worked for some of the best independents. And so we thought, well, let’s see how this goes. And there were some people, especially in the beginning, who inquired with us about publishing with us and who said, Well, I just I hesitate a bit because I don’t you know, I’m worried about the imprint name and whether that’ll mean anything. And we went into it. We said, Well, let’s see how it goes. In six and a half years, we have not had hundreds of authors now, hundreds of books under our belt. We have not had one person come back to us and say, you know, that went really well. But people kept telling me that I wasn’t published by X brand name and therefore, no, nobody has given us that feedback.

Peter Winick But I want to I want to touch on that for a moment if we could. So, for example, that kind of 15, 20 plus years ago, people how were people buying books? They’re buying them at bookstore, either Independent or Barnes Noble and retail. And you were relying on some of the experts at the retail level to advise you. And then you’d also look at the spine and say, that’s, you know, Random House over Greenhill So it must be good. I would argue that unless you’re in the business or Curious or something like that, 90 north of 95% of people buying books today probably don’t know who the publisher hits or it’s not a big factor, a big influence into their buying decision. Would you agree?

Jesse Finkelstein I would agree. I would agree. Now, I agree. 25 years back working even within the houses that I was so proud to work for, I was proud of those imprints. I still am. And yet we knew internally that the only people who cared about those imprints were people within the retail market. So people within the supply chain, right? It was a, B to B kind of thing. Yeah. If you know, if we were Penguin Random House and we were selling our list into the retailers at Barnes and Noble, you know, the Barnes and Noble rep would know what to expect, but not the consumer. And so it’s not to diminish the importance of that supply chain. Page two sells into the supply chain to we have excellent distributors who sell in and now they do know what Page two represents. They know and they know based on the expertise we’ve we had already going into to building this business. Right. We didn’t come from nowhere. And when we launched, people had we had a reputation. But beyond that, now they know we have actually buyers from the retail market coming to us saying, you guys are up to some really interesting things and they’re on to the fact that we’re doing things a bit differently because our authors are doing things differently.

Peter Winick Sure. I just want to touch on a critical point that you made that that I think oftentimes first-time authors don’t understand is that there’s two markets you have to satisfy or not depending on your strategy. Number one is we’re always thinking about the end user, the reader, or what can I do for my reader who and they’re defining with a high level of specificity the avatars that are representative of their readers, right? And then they’re trying to figure out how to how to convert their message and language and stories and anecdotes and data to really resonate with the reader. But sometimes because of a lack of understanding of how that supply chain works, they don’t even think about that. Like, wait, there’s groups in the middle that sold to retail that if I don’t get in with them, I won’t get on the shelf. Like, how do I deal with that? Right? That’s a whole nother logistical nightmare, actually.

Jesse Finkelstein And it it’s logistical, it’s operational. And to tell you the truth, that’s why companies like Page two exist. It’s not actually accessible in the self-publishing landscape. Right? And so page two, when we created the company, was really that idea with. The idea that some people who want to self-publish professionally, who want to do it really well and who want to do it in order to hold on to their rights, to really have more agency within the publishing process, should not have to be should not have to do it in a way that’s less than in any way. Sure. So that’s why we built our distribution program so that we could have we could offer the world to our authors. We just in a different model. But I would say I really like what you’ve said. I think if you put your reader first and if you think while you’re writing and while you’re planning out your marketing strategies about your core audience first, I don’t think you can go wrong. To be honest, I think that’s one of one of the things we also really believe in at page two is the market intelligence of our authors. So we will never let a consideration of a retailer or a book rep, no matter how much we value their opinion, we won’t let that consideration override the really important critical factor for one of our authors that might be at odds with that consideration. And here’s an example to make that concrete. If let’s say let’s say the buyer at a big chain says, you know what, I think I could sell more copies of that if it were published in hardcover first. But it’s really important for our author, maybe for matters of accessibility, maybe they’re doing training, workshops, whatever. It’s important to them that they launch as a trade paperback original. It’s not our job to say, Well, the retail buyer says this, so it’s going to be that. It’s our job to say the retail buyer says this. Let’s do an analysis. Let’s try to quantify it. And you make the decision. So our authors ultimately are the CEOs of their projects, and they decide with the information that we bring them.

Peter Winick If you’re enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you’d like to help spread the word about our podcasts, please leave us a review and share it with your friends. We’re available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps as well as at ThoughtLeadershipLeverage.com/podcasts.

So let’s talk about that decision process because I think two other variables that that people aren’t aware of when they enter the process is timing and control. Right. So you think that, okay, so if I’ve got this, hey, I’m ready to do my book and I’d like to get it out in, you know, X period of time, they may be disappointed to realize that that doesn’t always happen. And then the control that they have and don’t have. Can you can you touch on that?

Jesse Finkelstein Absolutely. When you sign a publishing contract in a conventional model, the publisher in most cases, in the vast majority of cases, the publisher will have the right to make all final publishing decisions. That doesn’t mean that they have the right to change your words. Typically, authors do have final sign off of the box itself. But once you’ve handed off that manuscript, the publisher decides on cover design, timing, pricing, format, absolutely everything. And that’s just kind of built in systematically to the process. And it’s built into the process at the contractual level. So when it comes to control, it’s not to say that if you’re working with a different kind of alternative model like page two, that’s not to say that you could then kind of override everything and you can just decide when you’re going to launch a book in the market and then go for it. If you do want to release your book in the book trade. So in brick and mortar stores as well as online, you do need to operate within that landscape. So part of our job at Page you is advising on the best way to work within that landscape, within those timing considerations. And sometimes that means that we’re actually telling people to slow down, to be honest. You know, we all feel rushed all the time to get our work out. And naturally, if we have we have a lot of authors who are speakers and they’ll say, I’m launching a new keynote. The book’s got to be ready at that time. No problem. We can get ready from a get that ready from a production standpoint. But the question of when you launch it in the book, trade might be different. And so it’s important to kind of tune in to those other things. But in terms of control of other aspects of the process, being able to determine ultimately issues, the branding, you know, the issues of cover design and even the interior, which is becoming more and more important from our perspective as well. How your audio book gets published, for instance. Now, as you pointed out that this is a growing field and we’re at this point where people, consumers want more. Sometimes they’re happy to listen to the text verbatim. Sometimes they’re really keen to hear additional elements built in. Sure. So we’re trying to kind of. Really make the most of those opportunities for everybody.

Peter Winick So I want to touch for a moment on there’s inherently, at least from my perspective, built in friction between a publisher and the author. And what I mean by that is in a publishing model, the obviously publishers want their authors to succeed and they put in all the work to do so, but they’re only aligned relative to the success of the book. For many authors, the book is part of a system or a process, right? They’re launching the book to dot, dot, dot elevate their speaking career, introduce video based training, etc.. So it’s not there’s never 100% alignment between the overall business objectives of the author and that of the publisher. And I’m not saying that’s good or bad, I just think it is. But talk about how to how to manage that from both sides of that reality.

Jesse Finkelstein Well, I think at the end of the day, it’s about being as likeminded as possible with the people who are working on your book. So if you if you’re in a publishing arrangement where you don’t have control over those over different most of the aspects of your publishing plan, I think it’s just key to know going into it who it is that you’ll be working with. And I know that’s increasingly difficult in a time when the publishing industry is just it’s full of layoffs and, you know, people shuffling around and authors who are orphaned, it’s it’s quite notorious. But overall, knowing that you have a team of people who are like minded in their approach to publishing and who will see eye to eye with you from an editorial standpoint as well as, you know, from a global standpoint, I think that’s the best way to mitigate it and also be really savvy going into the agreement in the first place. I think it is really important to negotiate that initial contract in a way that’s really thoughtful and that tries to manage some of these things. So, for example, it’s not likely unless you’re an author with a ton of clout because you have a really big track record, it’s not likely that you would get to write into the contract that you have approval over your cover. Sure. But you might be able to write in that you have meaningful consultation, for example, or the right to meaningful consultation. So do take a really good look. It can be really disempowering, I think, for a lot of authors to get their publishing contract and to feel kind of that they need to sort of sign it wholesale. I think your listeners, the listeners to this podcast will probably be pretty savvy going in and will really be thoughtful about that contract. That’s key.

Peter Winick Yeah, I think so. So lastly, I want to touch on Last big thing I want to touch on is the importance of platform audience followers. Call it what you will because there’s far too many folks that I’ve seen that have written, putting the heart and soul and blood and sweat and tears into something wonderful, released into the world. And it’s sort of a commercial flop. And not because it’s bad, not because the work is bad, but they figured, I’ll just I’ll build that audience later, like, you know, or it’ll just happen on its own, is someone will pick up the book and tell their friend how wonderful it is and they’ll tell a friend. And then, you know, unicorns and rainbows happen to talk about sort of the, the need for an author, which is very, very different today than it was to really be contrary to that and constantly be figuring out how to grow their platforms and their followership.

Jesse Finkelstein Well, I love that you’re implying that it is about demystification and not totally key. When we launched the company, we said two things. We had two expressions we used all the time. We said, No more spaghetti at the wall. We’re not just going to put stuff out there and hope for the best. And it’s not it’s not to suggest that that that’s what traditional publishers are doing. Not at all. But traditional publishing. To your point, it’s about selling books in bookstores full stop. Whereas, as the author and a subject matter expert, you have all these other goals. So actually you want your book to succeed on a number of different levels. And so I think it is about building platform, but not necessarily in the reflexive way that people have come to think about that there are so many different ways you can have a meaningful following, a meaningful platform and a meaningful audience trade. It doesn’t mean that you need 2 million Twitter followers to make a book successful. And arguably, if those followers aren’t invested in you, those 2 million are worth less than the 2000 people who might attend your workshops and your speaking engagements who are actually going to buy the book and talk about it and help you help support the success of the book. So it’s about figuring out authentically what is your platform and making sure that your publishing goals dovetail with not only what you have to leverage at the very beginning of the. The process, but also building it real in a realistic and also methodical way while you’re writing and planning out the book so that those things will connect at the right level. So what I mean by that is you’re building it and you’re thinking, okay, you don’t need to go in saying, okay, well by the time so my book is being published in a year, and by the time my book launches, I’m right now I’m only on Twitter and I’m going to be on all the platforms and I’m going to start launching my speaking career out of nowhere. It’s really about thinking, well, where, where, where am I engaging with people on the most meaningful level and how can I make the most of those.

Peter Winick And not just people, but where am I engaging with the people who I’m trying to serve? Right. Because, you know, if you’re a fan of Instagram, but you’re your base is more of an academic base or C-level base or whatever, they’re probably not there. So while it might be fun to be on Instagram, it’s not going to change your objectives. The other thing I would say about the importance of a platform and followership is in order to increase the probability that you’re writing the right book at the right time for the right people. There are things that you can do to test concepts before the book is published with people that are rooting for you and know what you’re about and are fans of your work. And once a book is out, it’s out.

Jesse Finkelstein Yes, exactly.

Peter Winick So it’s I think it’s the world’s greatest R&D lab.

Jesse Finkelstein You had a great. A great recent episode about this. And you have this excellent cohort of three different published authors who are all coming at this issue from different perspectives. I think you called it authoring from experience. And I and I loved that podcast. I think it was number 196. I love that podcast because each of them gave such a different answer to this question of how to make the most of your work as an author and how to connect that with the work you’re doing in other areas. But I think, for instance, there was Chip Connelly was talking about identifying, you know, how to identify that audience in the first place and actually understand not only try to guess at how they’re going to respond to your book, but understand in a much broader way and in a deeper way as well, What else are they consuming and how are they consuming and what other kind of information are they consuming? So it is there are a lot of different ways to engage with your networks and the people who your who are following you or the or the people that you’re speaking engagements, for instance, and interesting ways of testing the content. You’re absolutely right.

Peter Winick Well, fantastic. Well, this has been great. I need to go back and listen to it twice because there’s a lot of stuff back and forth there that’s great. So that’s always a good sign. But I appreciate so much your time and your thoughtfulness and sharing your experiences that are that are working for so many right now. So thank you so much today.

Jesse Finkelstein It’s my pleasure. Thanks so much.

Peter Winick To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at Thought Leadership Leverage dot com. To reach me directly. Feel free to email me at Peter at ThoughtLeadershipLeverage.com. And please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.